Given recent events and the collapse of the banking system which was all long predicted by the Austrian school (and laughed at when things seemed to be going well), why aren't we now having our moment of triumph?
At best, the fed's expansionary policy is only acknowledged as being a minor contributing factor to the current crisis. Greedy, short termism on the part of investors in the markets is blamed for causing this crisis. Insufficient regulation is blamed for allowing them to get away with it. The only solutions seriously considered are huge leaps to the 'left' with far more stringent regulations asked for.
How can Austrians ever penetrate the mainstream way of thinking? When things are going well, their "scare stories" aren't to be taken seriously. When things go bad, that only shows how free markets are unstable and self-destructive. We are losing the ideological debate and things look likely to get worse, not better. Why is this happening?
Because people like power. Once they have a taste of it, they want more. These people are not about ideology. They will never be convinced by arguments. They can only be defeated.
Microsecession as a strategy for revolution | Challenge to minarchist | How would a private road system work?
Stranger: Because people like power. Once they have a taste of it, they want more. These people are not about ideology. They will never be convinced by arguments. They can only be defeated.
Yes, but.
I think we have to go back to what democratic socialism is - the attempt of everybody to live at the expense of everybody else (Bastiat). So, the parasites must always be fewer in number than those in the productive class. Most individuals in the parasitic class do not fully understand the nature of the system of which they are a part, although they understand the benefits of the system to themselves.
While everybody wants the good life (living off the productivity of others), the promise of democratic socialism that everybody can have the good life is an obvious lie and doomed to failure wherever the true believers attempt to implement it. It appears that we must wreak havoc upon our economy at least one more time before Americans begin to absorb this reality.
All we need to "win" is a significant minority of critically thinking individuals who understand (really understand, not just assent) the reality that socialism is just robbery by another name and that it is always, always, always the poorest and disadvantaged who lose out the most and the richest and most powerful who win out the most in socialism, socialist rhetoric to the contrary.
After reading Bastiat's The Law and Boetie's The Politics of Obedience, I am convinced that a mass distribution of these two tracts on leaflet could have a significant impact on the social order. To anyone willing to organize such a distribution: I will give money.
Clayton -
This is the age of Central Banks. As Jefferson said "they are more powerful than standing armies". Considering this, plus the public's perseption that we need the fed as much as we need air to breathe and water to drink; despite their mistakes, they are going to be here for WHILE.
This is what I like about secession. I can have my liberty and the rest of the statists can live with the parasite they love so much.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
ClaytonB: All we need to "win" is a significant minority of critically thinking individuals who understand (really understand, not just assent) the reality that socialism is just robbery by another name and that it is always, always, always the poorest and disadvantaged who lose out the most and the richest and most powerful who win out the most in socialism, socialist rhetoric to the contrary. After reading Bastiat's The Law and Boetie's The Politics of Obedience, I am convinced that a mass distribution of these two tracts on leaflet could have a significant impact on the social order. To anyone willing to organize such a distribution: I will give money.
They're already available for free on the internet. Anyone who wants to read them can easily do so. You don't get better distribution than that. If people aren't reading them, it's because they don't want to.
The issue of freedom isn't about knowledge or education, it's about choices. The choices that people are given at the polls do not grant them freedom. People have no choice but obey government because it is the only institution that can protect them. If you were to establish an alternative to government that they could choose to provide their protection, then they would support their own freedom. That is where you should spend your money.
Stranger: ClaytonB: All we need to "win" is a significant minority of critically thinking individuals who understand (really understand, not just assent) the reality that socialism is just robbery by another name and that it is always, always, always the poorest and disadvantaged who lose out the most and the richest and most powerful who win out the most in socialism, socialist rhetoric to the contrary. After reading Bastiat's The Law and Boetie's The Politics of Obedience, I am convinced that a mass distribution of these two tracts on leaflet could have a significant impact on the social order. To anyone willing to organize such a distribution: I will give money. They're already available for free on the internet. Anyone who wants to read them can easily do so. You don't get better distribution than that. If people aren't reading them, it's because they don't want to. The issue of freedom isn't about knowledge or education, it's about choices. The choices that people are given at the polls do not grant them freedom. People have no choice but obey government because it is the only institution that can protect them. If you were to establish an alternative to government that they could choose to provide their protection, then they would support their own freedom. That is where you should spend your money.
Would the government not just arrest / kill anybody that tries to form such an organisation? Cheered on by the people it's being established for, of course.
GilesStratton:Would the government not just arrest / kill anybody that tries to form such an organisation? Cheered on by the people it's being established for, of course.
They might, but I've seen too many old retired mafia men to know that they can wipe out the organisation. And since the U.S. government is becoming increasingly misdirected and confused, it will only be easier to slip under the radar.
Ultimately there is no other way to do things. Secession is the same process, except you challenge the king in front of the court where everyone can see you do it.
I think Gil Guilory (associated with the LVMI) is planning on doing just that with his proposed SPR system.
-Jon
To darkness I condemn you...
Fried Egg: Given recent events and the collapse of the banking system which was all long predicted by the Austrian school (and laughed at when things seemed to be going well), why aren't we now having our moment of triumph? At best, the fed's expansionary policy is only acknowledged as being a minor contributing factor to the current crisis. Greedy, short termism on the part of investors in the markets is blamed for causing this crisis. Insufficient regulation is blamed for allowing them to get away with it. The only solutions seriously considered are huge leaps to the 'left' with far more stringent regulations asked for. How can Austrians ever penetrate the mainstream way of thinking? When things are going well, their "scare stories" aren't to be taken seriously. When things go bad, that only shows how free markets are unstable and self-destructive. We are losing the ideological debate and things look likely to get worse, not better. Why is this happening?
Because much of the "Austrian" ideas have already been synthesized into the mainstream? It's just that the mainstream doesn't know how to deliver this stuff to the majority of people and "Austrians" are too busy focusing on distinguishing themselves from the mainstream, which are both mistakes.
The Origins of Capitalism
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They're superficially similar. The mainstream justifications for the theories are different. Their understanding of marginalism could not be more different. If anything, Austrianism is consistently subjectivist, whereas the "mainstream" is not. Several schools of the "mainstream", moreover, are not Austrian and can never be substantially reconciled with it. No, the real reason is precisely that Austrians do not present their theories in terms palatable to the mainstream (i.e. mathematical modelling), are ideologically opposed to the half-baked crap the mainstream proposes and advance philosophical justifications for their methodology which are arcane to the mainstream. That, if nothing else, is what hinders the advance of Austrianism.
In other words, we won't sell out.
There's more though. There seems to be a universal failure to get their message across.
I've also encountered in debates I've had allegations of dogmatism because of being unwilling to consider each proposed intervention in it's own right. The belief that markets will sort themselves out being akin to religious faith.
The very notion that markets even have a self-correcting tendancy is challenged. Markets are views as highly unstable systems that need constant prodding and controls to prevent them spiralling off towards collapse.
Fried Egg: The very notion that markets even have a self-correcting tendancy is challenged. Markets are views as highly unstable systems that need constant prodding and controls to prevent them spiralling off towards collapse.
Well markets need protection and security of property. That is an undisputable fact. They tend to spiral out towards collapse when the state veers away from protection into outright predation.
Pure and simple, people are sheeple. They are stupid. People are not rational. A person is rational, but when you get a group of them, they become stupid.
There is a saying that some people are born believing in a god and others are not. It is next to impossible to convince someone that believes in a god that there is no god. Just the same, I think some people are born believing in a need for big government and others born believing we need almost no government or none at all. It is next to impossible to convince someone that believes in big government that it has way too much power.
In both cases, god and government, the vast majority of the world believes in a god and in big government. I believe it is the destiny of mankind to continually have government get bigger and bigger until it collapses on itself, and then the whole process starts over again.
The question is, will the market be powerful enough to eventually get humans off this planet. If not, then nothing else matters, because sooner or later, the human race and everything else on this planet will burn and die when our sun gets too big. Unless you are a Christian, because apparently there will be a second coming of Christ to save everyone, soon.
At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.
Saying "markets don't clear" or "interventionism works" is also akin to religious faith and usually is offered without explanation. We do offer reasons for our arguments. So whoever is stating that is either ignorant or a liar.
argumentum ad populum
Unfortunately since the vast majority hold the belief that government involvement/regulation of the market is absolutely necessary and good, they feel these views need no explanation and accept them without question.
Challenging the status quo is always an uphill battle.
Apparently, Information theory is supposed to show that markets are highly unstable and have little or no self-correcting tendancy. Something to do with the asymmetry of information or so I'm told. I would not claim to be conversant with this theory but it seems to me that the asymmetry of information explains why markets are not at equilibrium (because if all relevent information were fully distributed to those who needed it, prices would already be set at equilibrium levels). But it does not explain why they have a tendancy to veer away from equilibrium.
Afterall, Austrians understand how information is transmitted over time in the market place to interested parties via the price structure and entrepeneurial activity speeds up this process.
Agree with pretty much everything except for one detail. Most people are kept in ignorance and they like that so much that they won't do anything to get out of it. People like believing in dogmas (ie given "truths") instead of pursuing knowledge: that why the Global Warming movement doesn't stop even in face of two feet of snow in early October. It's all about faith. Believe in central banks: they are very wise men and they know exactly what they are doing. Believe in government because it's omnipotent and can even stop waves with a simple gesture. Believe in elections because it's important to get "them" out and our boys in. Believe in the medias because they are indipendent and objective, just look at Michael "Fatcat" Moore.
You get the measure of how much work needs to be done when you hear a self-procalimed "conservative" say that Hilary Clinton would make a great Secretary of State in an Obama presidency...
Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!
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