Jon Irenicus: The idea of an AI ruling over humans has to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard of. Either it will need programming, and thus there will be a leeway for human influence or it will develop consciousness of its own, in which case why on earth expect it to remain altruistic and not go the way of Hal? -Jon
The idea of an AI ruling over humans has to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard of. Either it will need programming, and thus there will be a leeway for human influence or it will develop consciousness of its own, in which case why on earth expect it to remain altruistic and not go the way of Hal?
-Jon
That's one of my favorite themes that the pseudo-marxists like to pimp.
They seem to think that the robots will be able to take over for humanity so we can be freed from the drudgery of labor and all live in egalitarian paradise.
What they can never answer is if the robots can do everything as good as or better than humans then why would they need us?
If we're really lucky they will keep us around as pets...
The rest of this thread was just painful to read.
Anonymous Coward:What they can never answer is if the robots can do everything as good as or better than humans then why would they need us?
To do the tasks we are most efficient at doing, aka, comparative advantage. Hopefully, this can be done through free trade.
Schools are labour camps.
I agree with Jon 100%! If the OP really cared about it, then he or she should do something about it.
Like the saying goes "Actions speak louder then words"
eliotn: jong52yuara: the free markets exist because there are winner & loser, winners are taking from the losers(unfortunately which is also human & indirectly will always affect someone's life & money) If people are allowed to act freely without threat of coercion (free market), they will not preform an action if they think it will render them less satisfied. This can be deduced from the axiom that all humans act, using means to achieve ends to render them more satisfied. If a trade would result in a net gain for one person, but a net loss for another from the point of view of these individuals, the trade does not occur (assuming no coercion). If I heard correctly, you assert that the free market is based off of one person benefiting at the expense of another. If we assumed that this occurred with free trade, then there would be no exchanges. People would act completely on their own, satisfying themselves using only their own land, labor, and self-produced capital goods to satisfy their wants. Unless a person is deserted from other humans, like Crusoe on an island, it has been observed that humans, unless the threat of force is used, will usually trade with each other. This means that both benefit from free trade. jong52yuara:my idea is.. if we gained from robots, at least we'll reduce less human suffer. How would robots do that? jong52yuara:aint thats what technology for? Technology is used as a means to satisfy human wants.
jong52yuara: the free markets exist because there are winner & loser, winners are taking from the losers(unfortunately which is also human & indirectly will always affect someone's life & money)
the free markets exist because there are winner & loser, winners are taking from the losers(unfortunately which is also human & indirectly will always affect someone's life & money)
If people are allowed to act freely without threat of coercion (free market), they will not preform an action if they think it will render them less satisfied. This can be deduced from the axiom that all humans act, using means to achieve ends to render them more satisfied. If a trade would result in a net gain for one person, but a net loss for another from the point of view of these individuals, the trade does not occur (assuming no coercion).
If I heard correctly, you assert that the free market is based off of one person benefiting at the expense of another. If we assumed that this occurred with free trade, then there would be no exchanges. People would act completely on their own, satisfying themselves using only their own land, labor, and self-produced capital goods to satisfy their wants. Unless a person is deserted from other humans, like Crusoe on an island, it has been observed that humans, unless the threat of force is used, will usually trade with each other. This means that both benefit from free trade.
jong52yuara:my idea is.. if we gained from robots, at least we'll reduce less human suffer.
How would robots do that?
jong52yuara:aint thats what technology for?
Technology is used as a means to satisfy human wants.
its not the truth anymore, these day everyone can open small businesses & lots of people are selling the similar thing/services. each of them need to cut each other throat to survive..
eliotn: Anonymous Coward:What they can never answer is if the robots can do everything as good as or better than humans then why would they need us? To do the tasks we are most efficient at doing, aka, comparative advantage. Hopefully, this can be done through free trade.
If only it were that simple.
They want to completely replace humans with robots to free them from the theft that is labor--or something like that.
Then people would be free to sit around painting landscapes all day and human creativity would boom.
They have an equally nutty idea that robots would eventually cause labor to become non-scarce and that they need to use the current tax system to force both land and capital to become non-scarce to combat this.
jong52yuara: its not the truth anymore, these day everyone can open small businesses & lots of people are selling the similar thing/services. each of them need to cut each other throat to survive..
Economics isn't a zero-sum game.
jong52yuara: hi all, this is just merely my opinion. i would say its probably gonna quite random but hope readers can read carefully or understand what im trying to say, i just instantly write whats coming through.
hi all, this is just merely my opinion. i would say its probably gonna quite random but hope readers can read carefully or understand what im trying to say, i just instantly write whats coming through.
Ouch...my eyes!! Is English your second, third or etc language? Your grammar is horrible!
jong52yuara: more human population = more suffering most likely to occur
more human population = more suffering most likely to occur
The comment you made above makes you sound like a United Nations population control Nazi freak. No, More human population means more new technology, goods and services will be invented for everyone
jong52yuara: high unemployment rate, more 'fake' job sector will need to be created(especially service sector), if we still depend heavily on monetary system just imagine theres 2 main level going on. 1st on is the human population which is like office workers, IT industry, engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc etc.. which this part generates most amount of activity as well as massive cash flow.
high unemployment rate, more 'fake' job sector will need to be created(especially service sector), if we still depend heavily on monetary system just imagine theres 2 main level going on. 1st on is the human population which is like office workers, IT industry, engineer, doctor, lawyer, etc etc.. which this part generates most amount of activity as well as massive cash flow.
The only 'fake job sector there is and that will ever be is the politicians and bureaucrats jobs. What we need is more politicians on unemployment!
jong52yuara: 2nd level would be related with the most basic survival of human race, which is farmer, food production related. unfortunately at this level the activity is kinda low, cash flow is not active as the 1st level. even if gov can force 50% of world's human population to get into agricultural, mind you the land in this world are limited & theres no way either we can cut off all the trees to grow crops/food.
2nd level would be related with the most basic survival of human race, which is farmer, food production related. unfortunately at this level the activity is kinda low, cash flow is not active as the 1st level. even if gov can force 50% of world's human population to get into agricultural, mind you the land in this world are limited & theres no way either we can cut off all the trees to grow crops/food.
WTF???? Yes, lets force 50% of the population to work on slavery plantations like some people did in the old days. That's a really wonderful idea! WTF??? The Idea is to make progress not go backwards. Who would you force work on these plantations? Would you volunteer to work on one of these plantations or in a lab or whatever in agriculture? What do you have as a career? If You wouldn't volunteer then why force others to do what you don't want to do?
jong52yuara: conclusion : infinite human needs and wants, in a world of finite resources, the only way to preserve those finite resources is STOP SEEKING economic growth.
conclusion : infinite human needs and wants, in a world of finite resources, the only way to preserve those finite resources is STOP SEEKING economic growth.
Now that's what I call a oxy-moron if I ever saw or heard one!! An average persons reward for producing or creating values (taking care of our human wants, needs and desires) for society is money so it is connected to the economy. Thus economic growth is a good thing! In a true Laissez Faire free economy the rich would actually deserve to be rich.
jong52yuara: Part 2. What do u want from gov this is merely my opinion(doesnt know anything about economy) how is the world's future would be like or would gov do something similar like this to achieve status of developed/mature country? 1.)- gov should have "Free Energy" research department, the main task is to invent a completely clean energy that does not harm the environment at all. this is very important as it will revolutionize the way economy & social works in next few century, perhaps forever as long as human still exist. - for eg: the gov can come up with a "free energy device" (today, we call it as battery. but its has far more potential than a battery) this 'device' or this type of 'power source' will be able to change people's way of life. the 'power source' can be use in automation process, industrial work, home electricity usage, etc etc.. 2.)- but for now, gov should have focus more on agricultural sector. what i mean is it isnt just a traditional way of growing crops, or farming. but actually can completely revolutionize the agricultural sector. the next step needed should be have another "automation or robot research" gov department. the main job is creates/invent machine that will be able to completely replace the job of a farmer. sure we all know these mechanical/robot will require some source of power to operate, thats why i have intially suggest "free energy device" will come in use to operate the require machine. assume, robotic technology will be advanced enough to completely replace farmer's job, agricultural sector, growing plants, thus will drastically reduce the basis cost of food price, no more lack of food supply as there is no such thing ppl in the country starve. 3.) next step probably those advanced robot invention will be able to replace into service sector/low level job/cleaner/janitor, factory worker, machine operator, mining, taxi/ bus driver, delivery boy, etc etc.. 4.) computer/ AI intelligence, will work together with human, implementing, replace AI brains into higher types of management job, supervisor, robot policemen, robot nurse, sales, helpdesk bot, robot clerk, robot secterary, robot admin, etc etc.. at this point, what does human do if robot has almost replace all our traditional job? the solution is pretty straightforward actually, when we're at the stage where almost all the job has been replaced by robot, we actually no longer need to rely so heavily on the monetary economy system to survive, our basic need, like food, medical will be done by robots, and we are at the stage where robot is working/support the survival of mankind. as a human being, this is the greatest time where u dont need to worry about lack of money and such, youre free to become what you want, if you like painting, just go become painter, if like soccer, just become professional football player, musician, turn your hobby into career, pro skater, pro gamer, etc etc.. as you could imagine. while the smarter human one, can become philosopher, thinker? brain-storming, scientist, developer, engineer, researcher, astronaut, can build your own spaceship, this is the stage where human can actually trying to turn startrek movie into reality, bcoz we can get the basic needs, such as equipments, processed raw material from those working robots, and we use it to build spaceship, anti-gravity vechicle, travel at speed of light, as long as you want to build/invent what you like, that has become your job. humankind will be able to travel to moons, mars, build happiest themepark on moons, university on mars, or even spend your life travel in space, exploring universe, establish contact with "alien?" travelling to another solar system, build another civilization on Mars, at this stage, human can considered as in star trek movie dreams come true, and human perhaps.. humankind has living in the same world, no more countries, we are using universal currency, no more race labelling, but all humans is the same and everyone is called as Earthlings..lol sooner, or later each family or group of ppl will be able to travel to space independently, human are so intelligent and smart already that they can survive on their own, move to any planets they want, build their own civilization, or will be able to build any dreams you like.. in my opinion, nothing is impossible anything can start from education.
Part 2. What do u want from gov
this is merely my opinion(doesnt know anything about economy) how is the world's future would be like or would gov do something similar like this to achieve status of developed/mature country?
1.)- gov should have "Free Energy" research department, the main task is to invent a completely clean energy that does not harm the environment at all. this is very important as it will revolutionize the way economy & social works in next few century, perhaps forever as long as human still exist.
- for eg: the gov can come up with a "free energy device" (today, we call it as battery. but its has far more potential than a battery) this 'device' or this type of 'power source' will be able to change people's way of life. the 'power source' can be use in automation process, industrial work, home electricity usage, etc etc..
2.)- but for now, gov should have focus more on agricultural sector. what i mean is it isnt just a traditional way of growing crops, or farming. but actually can completely revolutionize the agricultural sector. the next step needed should be have another "automation or robot research" gov department. the main job is creates/invent machine that will be able to completely replace the job of a farmer. sure we all know these mechanical/robot will require some source of power to operate, thats why i have intially suggest "free energy device" will come in use to operate the require machine.
assume, robotic technology will be advanced enough to completely replace farmer's job, agricultural sector, growing plants, thus will drastically reduce the basis cost of food price, no more lack of food supply as there is no such thing ppl in the country starve.
3.) next step probably those advanced robot invention will be able to replace into service sector/low level job/cleaner/janitor, factory worker, machine operator, mining, taxi/ bus driver, delivery boy, etc etc..
4.) computer/ AI intelligence, will work together with human, implementing, replace AI brains into higher types of management job, supervisor, robot policemen, robot nurse, sales, helpdesk bot, robot clerk, robot secterary, robot admin, etc etc..
at this point, what does human do if robot has almost replace all our traditional job? the solution is pretty straightforward actually, when we're at the stage where almost all the job has been replaced by robot, we actually no longer need to rely so heavily on the monetary economy system to survive, our basic need, like food, medical will be done by robots, and we are at the stage where robot is working/support the survival of mankind. as a human being, this is the greatest time where u dont need to worry about lack of money and such, youre free to become what you want, if you like painting, just go become painter, if like soccer, just become professional football player, musician, turn your hobby into career, pro skater, pro gamer, etc etc.. as you could imagine.
while the smarter human one, can become philosopher, thinker? brain-storming, scientist, developer, engineer, researcher, astronaut, can build your own spaceship, this is the stage where human can actually trying to turn startrek movie into reality, bcoz we can get the basic needs, such as equipments, processed raw material from those working robots, and we use it to build spaceship, anti-gravity vechicle, travel at speed of light, as long as you want to build/invent what you like, that has become your job.
humankind will be able to travel to moons, mars, build happiest themepark on moons, university on mars, or even spend your life travel in space, exploring universe, establish contact with "alien?" travelling to another solar system, build another civilization on Mars, at this stage, human can considered as in star trek movie dreams come true, and human perhaps.. humankind has living in the same world, no more countries, we are using universal currency, no more race labelling, but all humans is the same and everyone is called as Earthlings..lol
sooner, or later each family or group of ppl will be able to travel to space independently, human are so intelligent and smart already that they can survive on their own, move to any planets they want, build their own civilization, or will be able to build any dreams you like.. in my opinion, nothing is impossible anything can start from education.
We libertarians don't want or expect anything from the government period, Except to provide physical defense and protect us against, fraud, coercion and force (this includes being protected from people like you that want to force half the populace to work in plantations).
jong52yuara: Part3. Choosing a sustainable leader how to see a person as potential leader : - he/she do not cares about money/wealth - he/she definitely not rich & materialistic - he/she cares about ppl's welfare and survival - he/she willing to sacrifice their own personal time and money for others - he/she blames him/herself when something goes wrong
Part3. Choosing a sustainable leader
how to see a person as potential leader :
- he/she do not cares about money/wealth
- he/she definitely not rich & materialistic
- he/she cares about ppl's welfare and survival
- he/she willing to sacrifice their own personal time and money for others
- he/she blames him/herself when something goes wrong
Ha! have fun trying to find someone like that! The only sustainable leader we will ever need is a full blown genuine
Anonymous Coward: If only it were that simple. They want to completely replace humans with robots to free them from the theft that is labor--or something like that. Then people would be free to sit around painting landscapes all day and human creativity would boom. They have an equally nutty idea that robots would eventually cause labor to become non-scarce and that they need to use the current tax system to force both land and capital to become non-scarce to combat this.
wish everyone have time to do that, thats why i came up with a 'plan' how the machine should really helps human creates quality life in some way.. :)
1. How are you refuting my assertion?
2. Business owners make profit based off of whether they can satisfy the wants of the buyer. The capitalist that can create the goods that are most satisfactory for the consumer wins, while the one that doesn't loses profit. And also, business competition doesn't mean that two businesses that sell the exact same product both go out of business. If the capitalist has to go out of business due to business competition, he can try another business that he may be better at doing.
Michael S: Ouch...my eyes!! Is English your second, third or etc language? Your grammar is horrible!
English is my second language..
Michael S: The comment you made above makes you sound like a United Nations population control Nazi freak. No, More human population means more new technology, goods and services will be invented for everyone
try to do research how many ppl currently are homeless, unemployed & starving to death today..
Michael S: WTF???? Yes, lets force 50% of the population to work on slavery plantations like some people did in the old days. That's a really wonderful idea! WTF??? The Idea is to make progress not go backwards. Who would you force work on these plantations? Would you volunteer to work on one of these plantations or in a lab or whatever in agriculture? What do you have as a career? If You wouldn't volunteer then why force others to do what you don't want to do?
u probably have not been reading what im saying, i said completely replace agricultural sector with automated machine if possible. YES it is true nobody wants to be farmer, thats what im talking about & i proposed something to replace those 'farmer'
why the agricultural sector? because the most basic survival of human is food. if this stage are not evolve properly, dont bother talking about the rest because when the food becomes scarce, human cant work with empty stomach. assume, if agricultural sector did going through the new revolution, then we should someway utilize those machine to support survival of human kind. read my first post again..
Michael S: Now that's what I call a oxy-moron if I ever saw or heard one!! An average persons reward for producing or creating values (taking care of our human wants, needs and desires) for society is money so it is connected to the economy. Thus economic growth is a good thing! In a true Laissez Faire free economy the rich would actually deserve to be rich.
Stop seeking 'economic growth' actually means expansion of economy which actually i means like abandoned construction project, build up too much businesses but not useful(money laundering activities), not using recycled material on construction project, ridiculous maintainence cost, causing bad environment, pollution & etc etc.. i know there r so many people making wild speculation about this, but pls dont misunderstood. my main idea is how we suppose able to create a better world without wasting so many natural resources as it is limited. i also didnt say have to going back to stone age, but using modern technologies that can help our jobs easier and sooner it has the ability to support the basic survival of human being. when the supplement has been able to replaced by machines, human actually doesnt need to rely too heavily on monetary system anymore, by then human can move up a higher level of jobs, or turn hobby into jobs & such
eliotn: jong52yuara: its not the truth anymore, these day everyone can open small businesses & lots of people are selling the similar thing/services. each of them need to cut each other throat to survive.. 1. How are you refuting my assertion? 2. Business owners make profit based off of whether they can satisfy the wants of the buyer. The capitalist that can create the goods that are most satisfactory for the consumer wins, while the one that doesn't loses profit. And also, business competition doesn't mean that two businesses that sell the exact same product both go out of business. If the capitalist has to go out of business due to business competition, he can try another business that he may be better at doing.
yes, in capitalist world. only the strongest will survive. but that doesnt mean the weak should have left alone, just imagine if the basic human needs are taken care by machines, the weak will not need to change career or businesses. he/she will stay although business has significantly gone done, and usually people who stay has belief that they are the best providing product or services.
this is free will and free action. dont forget everyone only lives up to 80 years, when its the time to make it worthwhile?
jong52yuara:yes, in capitalist world. only the strongest will survive.
Two words:
Comparative advantage.
jong52yuara: try to do research how many ppl currently are homeless, unemployed & starving to death today..
You try to do some research! Our controlled economy, big business, big government, Dictators and regimens of other countries and elitists that have their own agenda are the cause of the problems you listed above. Instead of pointing the finger at the innocent, do something more constructive and point the finger at the real cause and try to do something about it.
jong52yuara: u probably have not been reading what im saying, i said completely replace agricultural sector with automated machine if possible. YES it is true nobody wants to be farmer, thats what im talking about & i proposed something to replace those 'farmer' why the agricultural sector? because the most basic survival of human is food. if this stage are not evolve properly, dont bother talking about the rest because when the food becomes scarce, human cant work with empty stomach. assume, if agricultural sector did going through the new revolution, then we should someway utilize those machine to support survival of human kind. read my first post again..
I did read what you typed and you typed: "force 50% the population into agriculture" I.E old school style but maybe more technically advanced plantations, labs and what have you! We don't tolerate tomfoolery around here! A robot or machinery isn't forced, they are programmed to do a task! You will never be able to fool everyone and someone on these forums will always catch it.
jong52yuara: Stop seeking 'economic growth' actually means expansion of economy which actually i means like abandoned construction project, build up too much businesses but not useful(money laundering activities), not using recycled material on construction project, ridiculous maintainence cost, causing bad environment, pollution & etc etc.. i know there r so many people making wild speculation about this, but pls dont misunderstood. my main idea is how we suppose able to create a better world without wasting so many natural resources as it is limited. i also didnt say have to going back to stone age, but using modern technologies that can help our jobs easier and sooner it has the ability to support the basic survival of human being. when the supplement has been able to replaced by machines, human actually doesnt need to rely too heavily on monetary system anymore, by then human can move up a higher level of jobs, or turn hobby into jobs & such
You lost me! Do you mean expansion of the economy by removing wast full economic projects, activities and/or practices? If it is what you are saying I don't know how that ties into stopping economic growth. Elaborate about it more!
jong52yuara:yes, in capitalist world. only the strongest will survive. but that doesnt mean the weak should have left alone, just imagine if the basic human needs are taken care by machines, the weak will not need to change career or businesses. he/she will stay although business has significantly gone done, and usually people who stay has belief that they are the best providing product or services.
As you said, the world is overcrowded. Why should we strive to sustain this overcrowdedness?
Internal contradictions ftw!
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
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