As quite a big music fan I've been wondering for a while about the possibility of attracting (other) so called "pirates" towards libertarianism, I'm sure many of them are but I see many of them as being easy to convert. I'm not really talking about your twelve year old boy who downloads 2 songs from Limewire every now and then rather the type of music fans who make up population of the big torrent sites for example.
First off they can see the disastrous effects of government action in this part of the economy. First in the form of creating the big music companies that produce horrible music for expensive prices, and then there's the RIAA. I mean many of these people can see the injustice and ineffectivenss of government action in this part of the economy. Moreover it's easy to see the true nature of government in this regard.
Then there's the entrepreneurial nature of the free market response to the failures of the music industry. Look at the response to the inadequacy of the music industry, invite torrent sites with over 180, 000 members that are basically the biggest music store with the highest quality music available.
With the death of the torrent site OiNK various other sites sprung up and became far bigger within days. I think the efforts of people like Alan Ellis (who was only recently charged) is very commendable.
Now I'm not sure if there are many libertarians out there on these music sites, because political discussion isn't allowed on most of their forums. But it seems to me like these would be a great place to "recruit" potential libertarians. These are generally independant people with a very good grasp of technology who can see the flaws in the state already. Does anybody know of any libertarian bands out there other than Rush of whom I'm not very fond,
I don't know if anybody agrees, however I've been thinknig about this for a while now and after reasing Jeffrey Tucker's pieces on TPB I decided to post it.
PS was anybody here a member of OiNK or is currently a member of any of the other torrent sites now?
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
I only use Direct Connect, and only 3 hubs. These hubs all require a very fast internet connection to access. Quite often there are discussions in the main chat concerning politics and current events and I'm always suprised to see the level of scepticism many of them have against the state.
Magnus: I only use Direct Connect, and only 3 hubs. These hubs all require a very fast internet connection to access. Quite often there are discussions in the main chat concerning politics and current events and I'm always suprised to see the level of scepticism many of them have against the state.
In hindsight, now that I know more & have wondered about this as well, this is not surprising at all, as many pirates are naturally skeptic towards the concept of intellectual property, & by proxy, the concept of private property itself. Many "pirates" already question one of the concepts that is fundamental to libertarianism (as well as, anarchism). They also deal with the social & political austerity that comes along with questioning seemingly popular conceptions on said intellectual property, which can drive many to eventually reject mainstream all together. The embrace of open-source & alternative copyright is, by proxy, an embrace of non-coercive concepts that fit well with anarchism. The concept of equating pirates as anarchists (even though both labels are being used to villianize said persons labels are being applied to) is not far-fetched, in this respect, methinks.
WARNING: This signature violates Rule 5. Stay classy!
Nitroadict:The embrace of open-source & alternative copyright is, by proxy, an embrace of non-coercive concepts that fit well with anarchism.
Well isn't pirating in general just the free market response to the interventions in the music industry that result in a low quality, expensive service.
GilesStratton: Nitroadict:The embrace of open-source & alternative copyright is, by proxy, an embrace of non-coercive concepts that fit well with anarchism. Well isn't pirating in general just the free market response to the interventions in the music industry that result in a low quality, expensive service.
This thread reminded me of something, I still haven't read "Against Int. Property"! Ohh well, I'll get around to it this week.
As I see it the free market always tries to get rid of the middle-man, so I guess one could say that "pirating" is a market response to the music industrys state protected monopolys that limits the ability to distribute music.
Absolutely. However, the difference is due to marketing: many do not realize open-source & piracy can be free-market responses to a non-free market. This evades the important roadblock of labels, misconceptions due to mis-use of terms, lack of education in relevant fields, etc.
The organizational structure of open-source is also very flexible, & reminds one of complexity theory & how movements can operate without any one real leader, while at the same time being able to fit into the previously established model.
In the case of open-source, many companies in the pink or mainstream market utilizing open-source to cut costs, etc., mostly ignorant or uncaring to the apolitical / political ideologies of the Free Software Movement.
A more recent example, outside of the open-source movement, would be the responses to the continued existence of the W3C: as of late, many are questioning it's continued relevance for setting web-standards (as well web-standards & practices themselves), and are considering more decentralized & less-bureaucratic (more efficient) means of developing web-standards & practices.
I'm actually rather clueless about what free source software is, I don't suppose you could tell me briefly.
I know how to download a torrent, upload a torrent and that's about it.
GilesStratton: I'm actually rather clueless about what free source software is, I don't suppose you could tell me briefly. I know how to download a torrent, upload a torrent and that's about it.
Members of the free software movement believe that all users of software should have the freedoms listed in the free software definition. Many hold that it is immoral to prohibit or prevent people from exercising these freedoms and that these freedoms are required to create a decent society where software users can help each other, and to have control over their computers.
"Cathedral & The Bazar" (essential reading for all that is free & open source): 1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar2.http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ (full text)Lawrence Lesig's "CODE: And Other Laws Of Cyberspace" (good overall primer on implications of proprietary control of the internet)1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_and_Other_Laws_of_Cyberspace2. http://code-is-law.org/excerpts.htmlIf you want to get into any reading on open-source & anarchism:1. "Anarchism Triumphant: Free Software & The Death of Copyright" http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html
The source code for software is the human generated language that a tool called a compiler reads to build a body of machine code than can execute on a computer. Free source, and open source do not mean the same thing. Although if you have the source code, and the brains to understand it and the right compiler there isn't much difference.
Open source is basically a way of freely sharing the task of building a software application. It does have it's drawbacks in that it can turn into something of a clusterf**k. It is true that it makes it easy to add improvements if something is found to be lacking. The problem is that is is just as easy to ruin it if someone has a mistaken idea of something being wrong. My pet term for it is open sores software. While it is a nice idea, if you are inclined to test things out a bit, you will find that if you compare software built this way to software built by a close working professional team, the pros win by a landslide.
In Moglen's Anarchist Triumph he does a wonderful job of trashing the validity of "intellectual property" by a long convoluted string of philosophy and highly biased examples. I have to agree that the concept is at least futile given the ease with which anything digital can be copied. However, things like music and software take a great deal of work to create and those doing the work should be rewarded, just as well as someone who does the accounting for the bookstore should. Either that or no one should be rewarded for anything and we all become communists. What ever works.
I am a musician, AND a software engineer. I deal with this difficulty by creating intimate experiences musically (performance) and unique solutions with software. (contract work) One I have done my job I don't feel as though I 'own' the results, since I managed to get my reward by effectiveness and mutual agreement.
These issues are causing difficulty for many people and businesses however. The world is changing so rapidly that it is hard to find answers. But the law of the jungle works right beside the laws of the market and the smartest, fastest, and most determined will win every time. You might not think it's fair. Most likely if you loose. The more inundated the market becomes with clones of things, the less they are worth. If the things are associated with experiences, the intrinsic value of the experience is diluted and sense of satisfaction as well. The more one is assaulted with sensory input, the duller ones mind, and... let me take you there!
mmartillo: While it is a nice idea, if you are inclined to test things out a bit, you will find that if you compare software built this way to software built by a close working professional team, the pros win by a landslide.
While it is a nice idea, if you are inclined to test things out a bit, you will find that if you compare software built this way to software built by a close working professional team, the pros win by a landslide.
Really? Compare (open) Linux vs. ("professional") Windows; (open) Apache web server vs. ("professional") IIS, (open) Firefox vs. ("professional") IE, etc.
(If you're going to compare OpenOffice vs. MS Office, for example, note that OO was a "professional" development until very late in its life cycle)
Yes REALLY! I have been developing software since 1989. I am quite familiar with the operating systems, development tools, servers, and browsers. I currently use Windows Vista OS and MS Virtual Studio 2008. I have compared them consistently for the last 19 years. The first development tool I used was "professional" Borland C++, I continued to use Borland until the mid 90's when I started using Visual Studio. I just explained the problems I have encountered with open-source software. I can't afford to be plagued with the inner turmoil of an 'open' development tool. It must be %100 or my time is wasted. Borland and MS have served me flawlessly. I can't count the number of times some 'open-source' devotee has preached their philosophy to me, and when I ask to see what development tool they are using they come up with nothing.
Philosophy is nice, but it's not my profession. My clients are not going to pay me for empty arguments.
Oh; I assumed you really meant applications, since development tools are the best-developed open source code. All I can say is I disagree 100%; I abhor crappy MS development tools - there aren't strong enough words to say how much! If it ain't Emacs, don't even bother
Paul: THIS...
http://tracker.xemacs.org/XEmacs/its/
I don't have time for. No issues with VS2008. The only thing I've found bugs in with the .NET 3.5 framework is the AJAX toolkit, which is a community project. Same problem..Joe fixes Ejay's mess, Ejay hates Joe so he puts the mess back ect. etc. Have fun children.
That just went over my head..
mmartillo: Paul: THIS... http://tracker.xemacs.org/XEmacs/its/ I don't have time for. No issues with VS2008. The only thing I've found bugs in with the .NET 3.5 framework is the AJAX toolkit, which is a community project. Same problem..Joe fixes Ejay's mess, Ejay hates Joe so he puts the mess back ect. etc. Have fun children.
Nonsense, you are generalizing one community efforts, failures, & organization. not to mention the crude web-design (okay, it serves it's purpose, but it's still a bit harsh on the eyes). As for children, I have big fun watching Ballmer through chairs & do key announcements after obviously doing a line of *something*. MS will be useful until open-source supplements the various areas MS is still competing in, and even when open-source does, MS will probably still be around in some form or another.Linux already has a good start in supplementing everyday windows functionality with WINE (for everyday users, but linux is pretty good with VMWare as well). There was also a newer OS being built on top of Linux, but rebuilt many Windows code from scratch (effectivley becoming a windows OS built on linux), but sadly I don't remember the name of it. I'll post it if/when I can find it, as it was fairly promising since they managed to avoid lega ltroubles with microsoft when they froze development to go throughevery bit of code to ensure they didn't directly copy everything (which might explain why they faded into obscurity momentarily, but apparently have getting closer to getting out of beta recently).
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