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Does Liberty lead to decadence?

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Conza88 Posted: Mon, Sep 15 2008 11:37 AM

What do you think?

Discuss. Smile

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Byzantine replied on Mon, Sep 15 2008 12:08 PM

It will if you grant liberty to decadent people.

But with the restoration of sound money, property rights, and freedom of association, I think you will see the opposite effect.

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Ever since I have become obsessed with liberty, I have had to cut back on a lot of my "decadence".

I'm eating simpler, hoarding more money, I cancelled my TV so I will be inclined to read more, and I have lost all of my friends because I am constantly frothing at the mouth about sound money and decentralization.

If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North

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Byzantine replied on Mon, Sep 15 2008 1:08 PM

liberty student:
I'm eating simpler, hoarding more money, I cancelled my TV

Terrorist.  I'm calling Homeland Security.

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I'm in Canada, so it's probably called the Ministry of Homeland Tranquility.  lol

 

If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North

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Parsidius replied on Mon, Sep 15 2008 3:08 PM

No, it is the other way around, as liberty encourages one to be productive and honest in order to succeed in a world of homesteading, production and contract. Statism, on the other hand, breeds decadence because one can live off of others despite the consequences through depredation.

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Parsidius:

No, it is the other way around, as liberty encourages one to be productive and honest in order to succeed in a world of homesteading, production and contract. Statism, on the other hand, breeds decadence because one can live off of others despite the consequences through depredation.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if many actually equatted liberty as decadence.
 

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Parsidius:

No, it is the other way around, as liberty encourages one to be productive and honest in order to succeed in a world of homesteading, production and contract. Statism, on the other hand, breeds decadence because one can live off of others despite the consequences through depredation.

Point well made!  Points to you!

If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North

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liberty student:

Parsidius:

No, it is the other way around, as liberty encourages one to be productive and honest in order to succeed in a world of homesteading, production and contract. Statism, on the other hand, breeds decadence because one can live off of others despite the consequences through depredation.

Point well made!  Points to you!

Well, while that may true, those who engage in such decadence may rationalize it relative to those who are percieved as more or less decadent.  "If everyone is decadent, then it can't be wrong!"

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Twirlcan replied on Mon, Sep 15 2008 4:13 PM

Decadence can range from anywhere to allowing women to wear pants or (insert foul joke relating to women's clothed state here).  So yes.  Liberty can and does lead to decadence but not all of the decadent people would feel they were decadent.

In terms of decadent as being destructive behavior, one that focuses on imediate gratification over long term satisfaction and stability then yes, it can lead to that as well.  But in a society of liberty that kind of decadence would be self regulating.  Non working drug users would either be killed by their habit, change their habit or starve to death.  The promiscuous would impoverish themselves through disease and lack of cohesive relationships.  The world would be quite Hogarthian.

Now with the state, promiscous people get child care, free contraceptives, free VD treatment and no incentive to stop this behavior since others are burdend with the consequences of their actions.  Drug addicts can get welfare and Section 8 housing to make sure they have more time to feed their habit (which is made more costly due to a state imposed "drug war").  Lazy people have benifits galore if they just are willing to stand in line ...all at the insistance of the state.

So if by decadence you mean destructive habits, if anything the state leads to decadence.

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Mlee replied on Mon, Sep 15 2008 4:22 PM

Liberty in this negitive sense would lead to the exact opposite, since one would be exposed fully to the consequences of ones own actions, so no, in fact the exact opposite. Decedance would be made more common by the ability to lay the consequences of ones actions on others. This is the State. 

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Conza88 replied on Tue, Sep 16 2008 9:55 AM

Any material related to this?

Some of the 'giants' try to answer it? Or I'm guessing it really wasn't relevant... hahah

 

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Yes. Hoppe's Democracy - the God that Failed.

-Jon

To darkness I condemn you...

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krazy kaju replied on Tue, Sep 16 2008 10:21 AM

No. History has shown that social institutions, when free from the influence of government, will continue to evolve and become more efficient. Think of it as sociological Darwinism: the traditions, habits, etc. that promote decadence cannot last long in a free society since people practicing a productive culture will be more successful, and thus their productive culture will replace the unproductive culture of earlier times.

This can also be applied to economic institutions and how the world has generally moved from early communistic hunter-gatherer societies towards more private property, division of labor, etc.

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MacFall replied on Wed, Sep 17 2008 11:28 PM

No. Moral action requires a choice. Without liberty, there is no choice. Liberty is prerequisite to morality.

Pro Christo et Libertate integre!

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