Fiddling while Rome burns?

GilesStratton:

Tell me then, What do you suggest? Be specific now.

Giles, one of the things I find most difficult about this forum is that one must refer to whom one's reply is  to.

If its to me, well that was perhaps one of the points I was trying to make in the first place - no input from others. Am I the only person here who is applying economics as directly as possible to my life? And if so many do appreciate a FREE market, why not do each and everything one can to participate in that or are we all corraled into using the manipulated market that government forces utilize to collect a (large at that ) % from our productive efforts with?

I started another Topic trying to brainstorm alternatives to the monopoly strangle hold that governments use (aka dollar ONLY in U$A), but it seems that short of something like eGold there weren't any ideas presented. Is this like asking for a faster than light warp drive?

Jon Irenicus:

No, not unless one is using maths to illustrate a point. If one wishes to advise a business using mathematical modelling, then they should take a course in that. Economics is the pure theory of how market economies work (and praxeology more generally is the pure, formal theory of the consequences of human action.) What an economist could do in a free society is an interesting question, but it is irrelevant to what is the nature of economic reasoning.

-Jon

OK, then why the fudge does the government use 'economists'?!? Keynes sure provided fuel for political use to meddle with the market. Its theory - don't expect real world answers OR its a 'science' and of use to government to 'enhance the lives of the citizens?!? And if that is horse phooey, then why aren't economists everywhere protesting the abuse of this field of theory?

Any valid theory will apply to the real world. The practical-theoretical divide is illegitimate nonsense. A good theory will describe reality, given that the premises economic theory is founded upon are themselves rooted in it (contra Friedman.) The rest is simply deduction. As for Keynes, what better way to rationalize government intervention than to give it a scientific veneer? The positivist methodology adopted by most mainstream economists allows them to escape the consequences of their theoretical failings. Test a theory's purported predictions, then claim that any failure of it was due to some unknown variable (this is partly why Mises argued the so-called scientific method was inapplicable to the sciences of human action.) Only glaringly obvious errors and massive catastrophes eventually dethrone a theory.

IOW, (neo-)Keynesian theory is mostly a veil which government uses to rationalize otherwise straightforwardly stupid schemes. Economists accept it either because it's all they've been taught and/or because it accords with their view of how the social sciences should proceed, and/or because they know which side their bread is buttered on. Even those who oppose its use by governments, mostly criticize Keynesianism by working within its framework, because it's what they know best. Reading some Kuhn on paradigms is a good idea to get a grasp of why scientists often cling to false doctrines.

-Jon

liberty student:

Suggest to promote liberty?

 

Did I not say be specific?

 

I asked you what it was you wanted me to suggest.  You were not specific.  Go back and read your post.

I'd be happy to answer you if we ever get past semantics.

 

Would you like me to specifically suggest ways to promote liberty?

Yes please.

I can only speak for myself.

1) I plan to help produce pamphlets and literature (in dozens of languages) that others can download and reprint.

2) I plan to help promote Austrian/Libertarian books on and offline.  Online by generating book reviews and by building websites completely around specific books that are in the public domain, and offline by raising money to put books into public libraries by way of donation.  I'd also like to find the most non-American-centric beginners Econ books to help promote to Canadian homeschoolers, perhaps again soliciting donations and providing one book per household that homeschools and has an interest in learning about free market economics.

3) I'd like to run for public office.  It doesn't matter what office, I plan to run to lose but to use it as a platform to speak to people and get their attention. 

4) The internet is the frontier, I am working on a scheme to get liberty oriented webmasters organized into massive web rings.

5) I plan to teach liberty-oriented web masters how to promote themselves on the web effectively.

6) I'd like to help implement and design the first true data haven.

That's a start of where I am in my thinking.  Some of it has been started, but I won't be able to get into this stuff in a meaningful way until the new year, because I am re-arranging my life to accommodate being an activist first, and a wage slave second.

I won't go through all your ideas in detail. I think all of them have potential though, I think 2 and 4 perhaps sound like the most successful, but I won't dismis the rest. I'm not sure to what extent you can acheive 3 without having quite a bit of money at your disposal. 

What pamphlets and literature in particular will you be printing/ downloading, and what books would you be promoting?

 

 

GilesStratton:

I won't go through all your ideas in detail.

Good.  I wasn't looking for a review or critique.  Certainly not from someone who asks to look at my vision of hope in detail while providing nothing of their own.

GilesStratton:

I think all of them have potential though, I think 2 and 4 perhaps sound like the most successful, but I won't dismis the rest.

Plans change, however some of these are already in motion.  Everything is organic.

GilesStratton:

I'm not sure to what extent you can acheive 3 without having quite a bit of money at your disposal.

Dog catcher, whatever.  The idea is to get in front of people and point out that the Emperor has no clothes.  I'm not trying to win, or even be competitive.  Just take advantage of the opportunity provided by being a candidate for anything.

GilesStratton:

What pamphlets and literature in particular will you be printing/ downloading, and what books would you be promoting?

I'm inspired by Lysander Spooner.  I have a lot more to learn about the Pamphleteering game.  As far as books, I tried to get help ranking books, and all I got were 1 million suggestions, when I needed a top 10 to get started with.  I haven't read all of the books mentioned, and I won't hold up the project for that.  I will pick the best myself, and start there.

As far as books to promote through websites, Jeffrey posted this, and I was taken with it.  "the 50 great PIONEERS of AMERICAN INDUSTRY", so I registered 50greatpioneers.com to turn it into a website.  I also own MisesCircle.com.  I'd like to develop that into a listing of Mises Circles in every country of the world, when they occur, where and who the leaders/organizers are with contact info.  So people can find Mises Circles to participate in wherever they are, even if they are travelling.

I can always use help.  Or people could come up with their own ideas.  But being a downer or a complainer or a devil's advocate or negative or silent or lazy isn't going to change jack, and I don't want to be a 70 year old man with regrets that I live under tyranny having done nothing to stop it. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.

This is a very stimulating and interesting discussion. How to act to really set a change in motion is a supremely good question which, more often than not, goes unanswered. Converting the Infidels, teaching them sound economics and half-decent morals, opposed to the present system of Collectivist lies and complete moral bankrupcy, is a very good start, one that could spell change, but it's still not enough. In my political experience I've see how this work: it's very, very easy to get lost on the way. The State-run medias have ways to break people without even touching them that make an auto da fé look like a tea party. Many people, like the Ron Paul delegates, will believe that to start change you need to compromise, make concessions, get yourself powerful allies. This is an excellent way to toss everything you've worked for in the gutter and to make a complete fool out of yourself. Your allies will get the vote and won't even allow you to feed on the bread crumbs falling from their table: you are the honest one, remember? Been there, seen that.

Jain, I hope you will agree with me when I say that I would be more than happy if, before shuffling this mortal coil, I would see a period with less taxes, less regulations and less power-crazed individuals running amok: I am not just talking about the big killers with the stealth bombers but also about the petty tyrants, be them uniformed or not, who see cohercion masked as "politics" as a great way to make an easy living, to make an extra buck, to feel important or to push their little social engineering schemes. The problem is there are so many of them... also add that many persons, like circus dogs trained to perform a mindless stunt at a flick of the wrist, have been completely brainwashed form the cradle in a way that would make Dr Goebbels feel mad with envy. They seriously believe that taxes are great because you can have "free" health care and a policeman at every corner, they are ridden with every possible feeling of guilt (hence they are easy to manipulate) and they truly believe that to make all the evils of this world go away all you have to do is vote for the new man Obama or the new woman Palin. Gigantic task ahead, I would say.

"We may give advice, but we cannot give conduct. However, remember this, they that will not be counsolled, cannot be helped."

      I smile more, and forgive more, and strongly believe 'truth will out'. I wish for more honesty. I hope the rhetoric becomes like a virus of status quo.

Good luck finding what your looking for.

     Praxeology is a vast field, if you havn't learned many new things about history or literature, etc, etc, from this site, it may be that you are not looking hard enough.

     Math does a good job describing physics, but quantify psychology, and you have discovered a new method. Every one is an individual, and most excellent when they are themselves.

 

 

Kakugo:

This is a very stimulating and interesting discussion. How to act to really set a change in motion is a supremely good question which, more often than not, goes unanswered. Converting the Infidels, teaching them sound economics and half-decent morals, opposed to the present system of Collectivist lies and complete moral bankrupcy, is a very good start, one that could spell change, but it's still not enough. In my political experience I've see how this work: it's very, very easy to get lost on the way. The State-run medias have ways to break people without even touching them that make an auto da fé look like a tea party. Many people, like the Ron Paul delegates, will believe that to start change you need to compromise, make concessions, get yourself powerful allies. This is an excellent way to toss everything you've worked for in the gutter and to make a complete fool out of yourself. Your allies will get the vote and won't even allow you to feed on the bread crumbs falling from their table: you are the honest one, remember? Been there, seen that.

Jain, I hope you will agree with me when I say that I would be more than happy if, before shuffling this mortal coil, I would see a period with less taxes, less regulations and less power-crazed individuals running amok: I am not just talking about the big killers with the stealth bombers but also about the petty tyrants, be them uniformed or not, who see cohercion masked as "politics" as a great way to make an easy living, to make an extra buck, to feel important or to push their little social engineering schemes. The problem is there are so many of them... also add that many persons, like circus dogs trained to perform a mindless stunt at a flick of the wrist, have been completely brainwashed form the cradle in a way that would make Dr Goebbels feel mad with envy. They seriously believe that taxes are great because you can have "free" health care and a policeman at every corner, they are ridden with every possible feeling of guilt (hence they are easy to manipulate) and they truly believe that to make all the evils of this world go away all you have to do is vote for the new man Obama or the new woman Palin. Gigantic task ahead, I would say.

Thank you very much Kakugo for your well stated reply. Yes I do agree with you.

Andy (caburlingame) - yes I am saying farewell, I am finding that this forum is not for me.

liberty student - best wishes for your efforts, especially along the lines of 'educating' others. For me, liberty/freedom is an INTERNAL thing, not dependant on being 'given or granted' either by others or requiring others to 'practice' it before I can have it myself.

What saddens and concerns me most is to not find other people who ARE 'living' as free as they can make their lives possible. Or maybe its just that they don't communicate about this for several rational reasons. Gotta respect that

Best to you all - Jain

Jain Daugh:

liberty student:

What's the problem?  You don't like the direction of the discussions, or you think that this is a forum of library libertarians who talk a good game but don't actually walk the walk?

The latter part of your last sentence.

Well, this is a forum for discussing economic and political theory. That's what it is for; that is what happens here. If it's not for you, that's fine. But I take exception to the idea common among some here that because here we discuss theory, that we don't do other things as well elsewhere.

 

MacFall:

Jain Daugh:

liberty student:

What's the problem?  You don't like the direction of the discussions, or you think that this is a forum of library libertarians who talk a good game but don't actually walk the walk?

The latter part of your last sentence.

Well, this is a forum for discussing economic and political theory. That's what it is for; that is what happens here. If it's not for you, that's fine. But I take exception to the idea common among some here that because here we discuss theory, that we don't do other things as well elsewhere.

 

Deja vu; I recalled seeing this black cat walk by earlier...

 

Jain Daugh:

I join sites like this to see if I can learn anything (new) that will add something positive to my own life. Selfish?!? you bet! (and thanks for the compliment to any who think so).

Yet all that seems to be going on are "# of angels on a pin head' type debates. Haven't come across one PRACTICAL bit of information yet. Sigh.

With the U$A standing with one foot on the banana peel of hyperinflation, and the rest of the world not calling its hand because they are all doing the same blasted thing,  why are  the free thinking minds focusing on statist ideas and ways?!?  I'm NOT talking revolution here, that is impractical as well as insane as far as I am concerned. Really a waste of anyone's time and energies for very LITTLE (is any) pay back.

If you all want to work on something worth while - how about understanding sustainability realities? Apply your mathematic models and understanding of how much WHAT exists vs. how many WHO want these basics (food water fuel) and while the question of WHO OWNS those resources is valid, will that really matter if (when?) the teeter point of sustainability drops over the expotential top of the curve and avalanches a big % of population over the cliff towards lower than 3rd world living status? How would (will?) you react? Will this only be an 'inconvience' that turns into a nightmare while you are waiting for the big lie reversal that fantasy organizations promise they will do. Yea and WHY should they do that when THEY continue to sit fat and happy while the rest of the population 'adjusts' in whatever manner 'happens'. Oh and of course before things get too bleak and messy on the streets, there will always be a war to switch the focus off of immediate neighbors and put onto whatever target the mess media directed by the Powers That Be point the sheeple towards. End results are always the same - retroactive abortions (aka killing[murder] in glorious war) and sad but real miss use of precious resources - food and fuel being #1.

So what are YOU doing if anything? If its hanging here to debate 'best way to govern humans' - Good bye and good luck - Jain

 

 

do you really believe that the United States is on the verge of hyperinflation?

 

it seems like a stretch

 

It's an interesting possibility.  There are a lot of dollars out there in the oil markets and foreign reserve holdings.  If there's a dollar panic, things could crash.  However, there is a Huge amount of capital with a strong interest in making sure US inflation is gradual.  So, there will be inflation, but only enough to cause pain, not death.

As an amusing side note, you can buy Zimbabwe hundred-billion dollar notes on ebay for a buck.  ;-)

liberty student:

I can only speak for myself.

1) I plan to help produce pamphlets and literature (in dozens of languages) that others can download and reprint.

2) I plan to help promote Austrian/Libertarian books on and offline.  Online by generating book reviews and by building websites completely around specific books that are in the public domain, and offline by raising money to put books into public libraries by way of donation.  I'd also like to find the most non-American-centric beginners Econ books to help promote to Canadian homeschoolers, perhaps again soliciting donations and providing one book per household that homeschools and has an interest in learning about free market economics.

3) I'd like to run for public office.  It doesn't matter what office, I plan to run to lose but to use it as a platform to speak to people and get their attention. 

4) The internet is the frontier, I am working on a scheme to get liberty oriented webmasters organized into massive web rings.

5) I plan to teach liberty-oriented web masters how to promote themselves on the web effectively.

6) I'd like to help implement and design the first true data haven.

That's a start of where I am in my thinking.  Some of it has been started, but I won't be able to get into this stuff in a meaningful way until the new year, because I am re-arranging my life to accommodate being an activist first, and a wage slave second.

These all sound worthwhile.

With regard to (1) and (2) one way I'll be doing that once I get a job will be teaching undergraduates and maybe graduates in political theory and maybe American Govt and International Relations. I'll be able to expose them to radical liberatarian ideas. Introduce them to these books, pamphlets, essays, podcasts, liberty-themed seminars put on by LvMI, the Institute for Humane Studies, etc. I'll also focus on trying to get them to learn to really think for themselves, develop critical thinking skills, and seriously engage with strange new ideas. In addition to teaching and academic publications, I am a big fan of science fiction and fantasy. Once I'm done with my dissertation, I plan to start trying my hand at writing liberty-themed SF&F. We need to do better at getting our ideas out into popular culture. While academic papers and books serve a useful function, they don't do this by themselves.

With regard to (3), you can use running for political office as more than just an educational tool. Having some fifth columnists in key local political offices can be helpful for protecting the development of alternative institutions to the state, both the underground and aboveground kind.

With regard to (4), there already are some of those, but it sure would be useful to get them better organized and more interconnected with each other.

(5) will be very useful. Teaching libertarians how to better market their ideas in general is sorely needed actually. But in the developing social media/networking web, we really need to learn how to use these things to our advantage.

(6) would be cool and useful. Have you heard about Google's idea for ocean-based, floating data havens? The idea is to keep them in international waters and make use of the oceans for power and cooling. A quick Google search will probably bring up articles on it.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

These all sound worthwhile.

Thanks.  I'm never short on ideas.  Time and resources are another matter.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

With regard to (3), you can use running for political office as more than just an educational tool. Having some fifth columnists in key local political offices can be helpful for protecting the development of alternative institutions to the state, both the underground and aboveground kind.

I could never seriously participate in government, unless it would be a position capable of striking a massive blow for liberty.  Biding my time, trying to tinker around the edges doesn't interest me.  I really want only to speak truth to power.  Sort of like Ron Paul, I don't think he ever had any illusions about bringing change by his lonesome, but rather being a persistent thorn in the side of statism.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

With regard to (4), there already are some of those, but it sure would be useful to get them better organized and more interconnected with each other.

My idea is much more sophisticated, and I think much cooler.  I was inspired by the Ron Paul campaign, and the way people would virally market their ideas and websites.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

(5) will be very useful. Teaching libertarians how to better market their ideas in general is sorely needed actually. But in the developing social media/networking web, we really need to learn how to use these things to our advantage.

That is why I originally signed up here.  I assumed the same passion in the Ron Paul campaign would be here for minarchism and Austrianism.  While the passion is a lot more subdued, I found out I was an anarchist, so it was definitely an experience worth having.  I am always available to help people out with marketing their liberty oriented sites.  Just send me a message through my profile page.  Eventually, I will blog ideas and tactics here at Mises.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

(6) would be cool and useful. Have you heard about Google's idea for ocean-based, floating data havens? The idea is to keep them in international waters and make use of the oceans for power and cooling. A quick Google search will probably bring up articles on it.

I will check that out.  Thanks.

I'm mostly inspired on this topic by a few things.  William Gibson's Neuromancer/Burning Chrome/Johnny Mnemonic universe.  The new US border rules to scam laptops and data, to be shared between government agencies.  The latter creates a massive opportunity for fast, encrypted data storage and retrieval.

It's great to cover philosophy, I really think we need to leverage our skills, creativity and entrepreneurship to create those insitutions we will need, and I'm not just talking about PDAs.  The easiest way to construct free market enterprises is totally outside the current realm of legislation and regulation.  Rather than playing ball, we'll build our own "outside the box" ball field that doesn't compromise existing laws or regulations.