YouTube: Mohammad the Libertarian?
Really interesting interview conducted by Scott Horton from AntiWar.com. If you don't know much about Islam (I learned a lot listening to this), it's a great 4 part interview. Also makes the case for the foundation of rational economics tracing back to the Islamic rule of the Iberian peninsula
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
I'll go on viewing them as dirt-worshippers, TYVM.
(I'm pretty sure they incorporated Aristotelian elements into their doctrine during the Middle Ages, so any reason present in their cult is most likely attributable to this, and not to any rationality of their own.)
-Jon
To darkness I condemn you...
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Not any more priceless than a religion founded with the purpose of uniting a bunch of individuals to conquer others by force (no comment on the degree of unreason exhibited by some of its extreme fanatics.) There is this tendency to praise religions for ideas they had co-opted from the ancient Greeks/Romans and I am wondering if this is not what this video is going to attempt. Only way to find out is to watch it later.
Second great experment in human freedom according to The Mainspring of Human Progress.
Anonymous Coward: Second great experment in human freedom according to The Mainspring of Human Progress.
Interesting. It is also the 2nd attempt at freedom in Rose Wilder Lane "The Discovery of Freedom."
The first was the Hebrews, who for time were a nation with no king.
Third was America.
Strange how they leave out the thousand years or so of Irish anarchy though.
Maybe they weren't civilized enough or something.
Jon Irenicus:Not any more priceless than a religion founded with the purpose of uniting a bunch of individuals to conquer others by force (no comment on the degree of unreason exhibited by some of its extreme fanatics.)
This is one of the fallacies covered in the interview.
The guy being interviewed wrote or co-wrote or edited a book by Rose Wilder Lane.
My point is that Islam contributed next to nothing other than a revival of Aristotle. All religions that have sparks of rationality draw them from philosophers, and in the case of the Abrahamic ones, these tend to be Greco-Roman philosophers.
Jon Irenicus:I'll go on viewing them as dirt-worshippers, TYVM.
Do you view Jews and Christians as dirt-worshippers as well? Is there a reason why you'd make this comment, and NOT listen to the interview?
Dirt-worshippers/worshippers of an invisible tyrant.
And as for the interview, I said I would listen to it... but that it sounds like an unlikely thesis to me.
Anonymous Coward: Strange how they leave out the thousand years or so of Irish anarchy though. Maybe they weren't civilized enough or something.
You write about what you know.
Its hard to fault a book on Islam's market based justice system because it fails to mention another system.
Probably they just aren't aware of it. Most people are completely ignorant of the political structure of ancient Ireland, even though they can quote volumes about the folk culture.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Jon Irenicus: Not any more priceless than a religion founded with the purpose of uniting a bunch of individuals to conquer others by force (no comment on the degree of unreason exhibited by some of its extreme fanatics.)
Not any more priceless than a religion founded with the purpose of uniting a bunch of individuals to conquer others by force (no comment on the degree of unreason exhibited by some of its extreme fanatics.)
Well that wasn't the purpose of founding the religion- and engaging in that type of act goes completely against the Quran. Of course there will be people who call themselves Muslims that ignore that idea and engage in acts of aggression(just like there are people in this country who say they support Freedom and Liberty but then support the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan) - but one of the clearest lines in the Quran is that there is absolutely no compulsion in religion. The idea of "Sharia Law" itself turns out to be very Un-Islamic if anyone actually uses the Quran as the basis of Islamic law(since Sharia is based more on supposed quotes of Muhammad called "Hadith"- which were recorded over 200 years after his death. Not all Muslims adhere to that). NO muslim country today truly uses the Quran as the basis of its law- all their governments have too much power and enact laws based on the personal beliefs of those in power.
Islam itself is very pro-private property and free-markets and if we were able to remind most of the Muslim world about this fact then they would see much more prosperity than they do now. As it is now, nearly all Muslim nations have nothing but government interference in the market and disrespect towards private property. illiteracy is also very high so the average Muslim has to go to an Imam who usually doesn't know what he's talking about(since they nearly always support their state more than they do Islam) for instruction on what the Quran says.
I think the importance of videos like this are more for educating Muslims than anyone else. It is no wonder that the Muslim world is ridden with poverty- and the "Golden age" of prosperity in the Muslim world is long gone. Free-market principles have been eradicated infavor of statism and socialism. Capitalism is now seen as a brand new "Western" invention based on greed- rather than something that all Muslims should be in support of.
Jon Irenicus, you seem very learned and balanced. I agree with your views. I am in no way an expert, however in my studies of the Qur'an, the hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad, and some economic history during the Muslim golden ages, the main thread of the uncorrupted Islamic edicts always boil down to the liberty and pro-choice of individuals (i.e. no compulsion, except in those matters impinging upon societal peace) and the sanctity of private property, muslim or not. These coincide very well with libertarian values espoused on Mises.org. One good site to gain an overview, though not strictly economics related is www.muslimheritage.com
You are also right in stating that most "muslim" countries are backwards because in one way or another, the majority who profess to be Muslim, unknowingly perhaps, have exchanged their allegiance to God and his edicts, towards allegiance to Government. In essence, deifying the State. If you want to get metaphysical about it, it is stated in the Qur'an that God will not help those who do not worship him. You could say most muslims of today are having their come-uppance for replacing worship of God wih worship of the State (and their so-called Imams, clergy and apparatus who are mostly state sponsored).
sorry, I meant I agreed with actionguy.
This is an interesting quote from Nietzsche's the Anti-Christ. Apparently, old FN liked the Muslims, too.
Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization,and later it also destroyed for us the whole harvest of _Mohammedan_civilization. The wonderful culture of the Moors in Spain, which wasfundamentally nearer to _us_ and appealed more to our senses and tastesthan that of Rome and Greece, was _trampled down_ (--I do not say bywhat sort of feet--) Why? Because it had to thank noble and manlyinstincts for its origin--because it said yes to life, even to the rareand refined luxuriousness of Moorish life!... The crusaders later madewar on something before which it would have been more fitting for themto have grovelled in the dust--a civilization beside which even that ofour nineteenth century seems very poor and very "senile."--What theywanted, of course, was booty: the orient was rich.... Let us put asideour prejudices! The crusades were a higher form of piracy, nothing more!The German nobility, which is fundamentally a Viking nobility, was inits element there: the church knew only too well how the German nobilitywas to be _won_.... The German noble, always the "Swiss guard" of thechurch, always in the service of every bad instinct of the church--_butwell paid_.... Consider the fact that it is precisely the aid of Germanswords and German blood and valour that has enabled the church to carrythrough its war to the death upon everything noble on earth! At thispoint a host of painful questions suggest themselves. The Germannobility stands _outside_ the history of the higher civilization: thereason is obvious.... Christianity, alcohol--the two _great_ means ofcorruption.... Intrinsically there should be no more choice betweenIslam and Christianity than there is between an Arab and a Jew. Thedecision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here.Either a man is a Chandala or he is not.... "War to the knife with Rome!Peace and friendship with Islam!": this was the feeling, this was the_act_, of that great free spirit, that genius among German emperors,Frederick II.
And your proof that this was not Mohammed's intent, would be?
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