JCFolsom:There are two differences, here. First off, my money is being confiscated, right now, along with other people's to pay for that road. This differs from SS, where the money you paid in is already long spent, and it is only working people's money you collect.
Wait, a system that steals money 'right now' to pay for a project that has a future usefulness is somehow more moral than a system that steals money 'right now' to pay out some benefits that were 'purchased' in the past?
JCFolsom:Secondly, that's not how I see it. I see myself hemmed in, on all sides, by lands the tyrants claim as their own. I am trapped, and even if I were not "allowed" to use the roads, I would still do so in defiance of the system. Can you really not see the difference between the two situations. It is land; it may be they who claim it, and slapped asphalt on it, but that does not change my essential freedom of movement, which I retain by right whether or not government acknowledges it and claims the only means to do so.
What essential freedom of movement?
You only have the freedom to move where you are invited or where you are the legal owner of the property. Other than that you would be violating somebody else's rights.
Non-government ownership of the roads wouldn't change this, I suppose you would also claim a right of movement across a private toll road as well?
JCFolsom:On the other hand, you actually need to apply and cash checks from people who steal the money "for you" essentially at gunpoint, and justify it by saying, "hey, they robbed me before, too, essentially at gunpoint. So, fair's fair! Two wrongs make a right!"
So it's just a matter of the amount of effort it takes then?
How much effort does it take to go to one of them fancy state colleges?
The only real difference is they see robbing people in the present, essentially at gunpoint, to provide you with an education as an investment in their ability to rob even more from you in the future.
JCFolsom:Or, are you claiming that you live at bare subsistence and still can't save?
Yeah, this astroturfing for the Supreme Leader of the World doesn't pay as much as fsk seems to think...
Why is it our responsibility? I am not making sacrifices for the state!
scineram: Why is it our responsibility? I am not making sacrifices for the state!
Who said it was your responsibility?
I'm just trying to determine how one becomes a hypocrite for using SS as opposed to all the other government programs that get forced down our throats.
Haha. The old people are right. You don't have to worry about being a hypocrite.
Anonymous Coward:How much effort does it take to go to one of them fancy state colleges? The only real difference is they see robbing people in the present, essentially at gunpoint, to provide you with an education as an investment in their ability to rob even more from you in the future.
Indeed, and going to a state college is also an unjustifiable cooperation with the state.
Even where nearly every college/university in a country is state-owned, or where all universities, regardless of being private or not, are state-subsidized?
-Jon
To darkness I condemn you...
GilesStratton: The two are not different, you can't move without using government roads, somebody can't live without SS.
The two are not different, you can't move without using government roads, somebody can't live without SS.
Not entirely true - I live in a subdivision where the roads are a joint ownership of all lot owners. Heck the government doesn't even WANT our roads - it would cost them too much to maintain! The sad thing is that most owners here are so warped by thinking of all roads being maintained by 'someone/thing else' that they don't even take care of their OWN roads.
Jain
JCFolsom: No. It is possible to both live and save, even with taxes stealing from you. You may have to make some sacrifices, and indeed, it is your responsibility to do so. Of course, where you get the right to stop working at some age, I don't know. It's just arbitrary to be able to "retire" at 62 or 65. Take care of your health, take care of your finances, work to present yourself well and get useful skills, and you can support yourself. Or, are you claiming that you live at bare subsistence and still can't save? Every luxury you buy, without saving such that you could live without benefiting from extortion, is stealing from those you know will be thus extorted.
No. It is possible to both live and save, even with taxes stealing from you. You may have to make some sacrifices, and indeed, it is your responsibility to do so. Of course, where you get the right to stop working at some age, I don't know. It's just arbitrary to be able to "retire" at 62 or 65. Take care of your health, take care of your finances, work to present yourself well and get useful skills, and you can support yourself. Or, are you claiming that you live at bare subsistence and still can't save? Every luxury you buy, without saving such that you could live without benefiting from extortion, is stealing from those you know will be thus extorted.
JC, it seems to me that your gripe, and a legitmate one too, is that YOU are being extorted from. Couldn't agree with you more! I'm Ataxist myself and long ago understood that taxing is theft period. Yet you seem to want to convince us, your fellow extortees, that WE are the ones taking from YOU?!? Do you honestly think that if we stopped accepting benefits that the government would stop collecting?!? What a laughable thought! So please allow us to work in our own little, albeit twisted to some, ways to 'combat' this ponzi scam as best we can. If free fruits were being handed out to all comers, would you let those rot because you felt they were 'stolen' from the growers? Lots of different ways to see this problem, and I think only lots of different 'answers' are needed to solve it too.
JCFolsom: I don't know. It's just arbitrary to be able to "retire" at 62 or 65.
I don't know. It's just arbitrary to be able to "retire" at 62 or 65.
I'll bet that that age was selected when the average life expectancy was around 60! And if you really want to know why I 'retired' early (in 50s!), its because I came to an economic decision - it COST me more to 'work' than I gained in MY life. Besides we long ago learned to live well with very LITTLE actual money so could and did. I too object to being penalized for being productive so now my 'productive' efforts go as directly towards MY life as I can manage. Collecting SS is one of the little 'got ya' joys that I get out of government. And that isn't from YOU, its more a statement of how the mass belief of the fantasy of government is supported by the sheeple that govenment fleeces. Don't want to be a sheeple? Find a way to NOT be one.
Ludwig von Mises Institute | 518 West Magnolia Avenue | Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528
Phone: 334.321.2100 · Fax: 334.321.2119
contact@Mises.org | webmaster | AOL-IM MainMises
Mises.org sitemap