The Mises Community
An online community for fans of Austrian economics and libertarianism, featuring forums, user blogs, and more.

Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

Latest post Fri, Jul 25 2008 11:22 AM by Niccolò. 36 replies.
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 1:56 PM

    • Matt
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Sun, Dec 9 2007
    • Albertville, Alabama
    • Posts 19
    • Points 620

    Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    In this current political, social, and financial environment, people are looking for answers. The current two party system gives them the illusion of choice. Each side promises change, a new course, but brings nothing but the failed policies of the previous century. The issues are narrowed down to arbitrary differences in policy, like how things should be tweaked, instead of questioning the fundamental principles of policy. While all the while our federal government continues to becomes bigger and more intrusive. Then here we are sitting on the side lines debating theories of liberty, while the state continues to grow. We get obsessed with personalities and form cult like followings. WHEN will we put these petty differences to the side and face the real enemy... the statist? How long with the CATO institute argue with the MIses institute on monetary policy while inflation wrecks our economy? How long will the Rand and Mises institutes call each other cults as an entire nation is enslaved? The world is looking for new answers, then they look at us slandering each other. They just see more of the same, people arguing not over principle, but people trying to one up each other, trying to be the more intellectual thinkers, or just defending the credibility of their dead heroes.

    At the risk of sacrificing the credibility of this letter I must quote from Braveheart. After William Wallace's major victory at Stirling he is knighted. As a symbol of Scottish freedom Wallaced is asked which Scottish Noble and Clan he agreed with. Wallace just rolls his eyes and walks out of the room. When they ask where he is going he says "You're so concerned with squabbling over the scraps from Longshanks table that you've missed you're God given right to something better". It is very relevant to our current situation. It is time we unite and put our creative and financial resources together. Lets start now.... What is our current options? The only way we can advance the cause of liberty at this time is through the Libertarian Party. The two party system is restraining us and any attempts to work in it are proving futile. If the LP became a major contender in the political machine we could put a dent in the current two party system. We must unite behind Barr.... Please put behind the insignificant (at this time) differences on abortion and immigration. If it is such a hurdle for you then try to find your convection in the other two candidates. He is the only choice we have. Also to the market anarchist I sympathize with your convection but could you ever forsee state abolishment if it continues to expand? Please join with us so we can at least stop the expansion of government... maybe even reduce its size. Its time we get real with each other and make a difference. Lets show this nation and the world there is hope... and that hope comes with human liberty.

     

    Anyone with simmilar convictions and with better grammar please correct this and please everyone who agrees with the letter post it on every libertarian forum you know of.

    • Post Points: 50
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 2:21 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Libertarians of the world...unite?

     

    I don't want to be the pessimist here, but it sounds like you're saying we should play within the rules of a rigged game. Your vote doesn't count. Steven Landsberg (a "hardcore libertarian") calculates that you have a better chance at winning the lottery 128 times over. Voting is irrational. Also, why should US libertarians rally behind Barr rather than Paul?

     "Education is the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent" - J.M. Keynes

    I've begun a humourous romp through free market economics and politics. It's called Europe is Doomed. Check it out!

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 2:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 2:53 PM In reply to

    • Caley
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008
    • Posts 17
    • Points 250

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Voting is only useless for the purpose of electing a LP.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 3:08 PM In reply to

    • Niccolò
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Fri, Aug 31 2007
    • On site.
    • Posts 982
    • Points 16,755

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Caley:

    Voting is only useless for the purpose of electing a LP.

    Voting is only useful in a referendum - where people can vote directly practicing their individual rights.

     

    Voting for a representative is submission and stupid.

    • Post Points: 35
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 3:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Basically, voting only remotely makes sense at an extremely local level and in as direct a way as possible. National elections are essentially pointless, since it is so indirect and draconian. Meaningful change always occurs from the bottom up. Using top-down methods to abolish top-down methods is self-defeating.

    • Post Points: 5
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 3:21 PM In reply to

    • Niccolò
    • Top 10 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Fri, Aug 31 2007
    • On site.
    • Posts 982
    • Points 16,755

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    In any case...

     

    Nah... I think I'll further walk the line of schism and attempt to convert as many vulgar libertarians as possible.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 7:03 PM In reply to

    • Matt
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Sun, Dec 9 2007
    • Albertville, Alabama
    • Posts 19
    • Points 620

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Niccolò:

    Caley:

    Voting is only useless for the purpose of electing a LP.

    Voting is only useful in a referendum - where people can vote directly practicing their individual rights.

     

    Voting for a representative is submission and stupid.

    If you truly believe this then you are truly opposed to individual rights.... Pure democracy is just the mob where 51% of people can take the rights away from the 49%.

     

    As for everyone else... If you want to just sit around talking about how voting and campaigning is useless then I really have lost hope in the community. Maybe it is spinning your wheels but to sit by on idel spewing hatred toward government is not only annoying its pathetic. Do SOMETHING ... anything... Talking doesn't and never solves anything.... yet thats all you do as your freedoms dwindle away. Stop making this an argument about how smart you are for not voting or doing anything and do something... Look at the leaders of our cause they were involved with political action.... Rothbard was very involved... and if it wasn't for his ideals most of you here wouldn't even know what market anarchy is or maybe libertarianism. Are you better then him? DO you feel that everything he done was futile or do you think he felt convicted and was willing to do anything to spread his principles. Also do you think not voting is any better then voting symbolicly? I wonder when you are willing to wake up and to fight... at the risk of being sensationalist... the Jews hardly fought to protect their freedom in Nazi Germany... not until it was too late. Use your mouth piece until its completely gone... If you don't do that then you deserve our totalitarian future.

    • Post Points: 50
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 7:51 PM In reply to

    • nje5019
    • Top 150 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Wed, Jan 23 2008
    • Posts 57
    • Points 750

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Mattes:
    Do SOMETHING ... anything... Talking doesn't and never solves anything.... yet thats all you do as your freedoms dwindle away.

    You're going to piss a lot of people off if you keep on being presumptuous like that. This is a message board. It's for discussion. You have absolutely no idea what the people on this message board do with their time outside the message board so you're not qualified to say that all we do is talk.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 7:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    If you truly believe this then you are truly opposed to individual rights

    Abstaining from voting opposes individual rights?

    Pure democracy is just the mob where 51% of people can take the rights away from the 49%.

    And yet this is coming from the same person who is telling us to vote, to participate in the democratic process.

    Stop making this an argument about how smart you are for not voting or doing anything and do something

    It's not about how smart anyone is, it's about practicality in light of one's goals.

    Look at the leaders of our cause they were involved with political action....

    Yea, and the outcome has been a miserable failure.

    I wonder when you are willing to wake up and to fight

    I really don't understand how voting can be "fighting". It's just punching a hole in a piece of paper.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 7:59 PM In reply to

    • Matt
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Sun, Dec 9 2007
    • Albertville, Alabama
    • Posts 19
    • Points 620

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    nje5019:

    Mattes:
    Do SOMETHING ... anything... Talking doesn't and never solves anything.... yet thats all you do as your freedoms dwindle away.

    You're going to piss a lot of people off if you keep on being presumptuous like that. This is a message board. It's for discussion. You have absolutely no idea what the people on this message board do with their time outside the message board so you're not qualified to say that all we do is talk.

    lol to be honest I really don't care if I piss you off. If you read it and feel convicted then that message is for you.... If it doesn't bother you then maybe you have no reason to feel guilty about being stagnant.

    • Post Points: 5
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:09 PM In reply to

    • Matt
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Sun, Dec 9 2007
    • Albertville, Alabama
    • Posts 19
    • Points 620

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Abstaining from voting opposes individual rights?

    No I said pure democracy opposes individual rights

    And yet this is coming from the same person who is telling us to vote, to participate in the democratic process.

    Yeah but I was talking about direct democracy... even so if the majority steam rolls us because you refuse to vote what have you acheived?

    It's not about how smart anyone is, it's about practicality in light of one's goals.

    We share a common goal to shrink the size of the federal government. If you aren't voting what are you doing to do this?

    Yea, and the outcome has been a miserable failure.

    How much of that failure was contributed by an-caps and escapist who refused to vote? or get involved?

    I really don't understand how voting can be "fighting". It's just punching a hole in a piece of paper.

    I really don't understand how not voting can be such a admirred thing... If its so easy why not vote to extend liberty? Even if its useless or no exactly in line with what you want.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:10 PM In reply to

    • MacFall
    • Top 25 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Jan 3 2008
    • The steel buckle of the Rust Belt
    • Posts 537
    • Points 9,330

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    Niccolò:

    In any case...

     

    Nah... I think I'll further walk the line of schism and attempt to convert as many vulgar libertarians as possible.

    Huzzah. I'd rather lose and be right than win at the cost of my principles.

    Thankfully, that's a false dichotomy. We can win and keep our principles at the same time.

    Pro Christo et Libertate integre!

    • Post Points: 35
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    MacFall:
    Huzzah. I'd rather lose and be right than win at the cost of my principles.

    Thankfully, that's a false dichotomy. We can win and keep our principles at the same time.

    Would you be willing to put someone else's life on the line rather than compromise your principles?  Just a hypothetical.  Let's say a sibling.  Would you abandon them if it meant compromising your principles?

     

     

    "I kiss my fear on the mouth"
    No Treason - Now with dofollow comment links

    • Post Points: 35
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:28 PM In reply to

    • MacFall
    • Top 25 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Jan 3 2008
    • The steel buckle of the Rust Belt
    • Posts 537
    • Points 9,330

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    I can't think of anyone I love who wouldn't despise me for compromising my principles for any reason, so that's an easy one for me. I don't believe in such a thing as an on/off switch for right and wrong.

    Pro Christo et Libertate integre!

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    MacFall:

    I can't think of anyone I love who wouldn't despise me for compromising my principles for any reason, so that's an easy one for me.

    That wasn't the question, but you tried, so fair enough.

    MacFall:

    I don't believe in such a thing as an on/off switch for right and wrong.

    Believing that is admirable.  Living it is another story.

     

    "I kiss my fear on the mouth"
    No Treason - Now with dofollow comment links

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:43 PM In reply to

    • Nitroadict
    • Top 25 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Mon, Jan 7 2008
    • Bored & Extremely Dangerous
    • Posts 490
    • Points 7,745

    Re: Time to unite (an open letter to libertarians)

    liberty student:

    Believing that is admirable.  Living it is another story.



    It's a different story for everyone, so it's not unreasonable to see that some do not simply flip moralities in a given situation. 

    It would be a bit condenscending assuming otherwise, methinks :\ .

    • Post Points: 5
  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:45 PM In reply to