Agorism activity

Anonymous Coward:

Nitroadict:

When all Agorist's fail to counter such an argument, I'll stop holding my breath. 

Bumped for any takers?

Nah, then they'll have to admit that I'm right about the self-sufficiency part that the agorists 'detest'.

If they purchase the government monopoly gasoline to fuel their economic engine then they are acting in a self defeating manner so they have to find a way to acquire it outside of the state run system which means self-sufficiency.

Now, once home brewed ethanol becomes viable from lawn clippings or solar powered cars then it's an altogether different story but under a fossil fuel/nuclear powered economy it's impossible to defeat the state through agorism.

I thought sapping resources from the State and using them to trade into the Agora / counter-economy was one of the basic points? 

It could be argued that diverting resources from the pink market in order to better facilitate trade between those associated in the black & grey markets can be valuable, especially with getting those who purley operate in and/or only know about the pink market (say, average joe?), as they might see only operating with the Agora in the black & grey markets as a limitation on being able to get the requirements to meet a decent living standard. 

While it could be argued that eventually, those markets would grow to be able to better meet Average Joe's demands, where the pink market typically meets the, Average Joe may not want to hear this; he probably wouldn't like the (seemingly silly to some non-agorists or mainstream political types) philisophical limitation of not being able to go to a local Rite-Aid, buy "x" amount of stuff, and be able to trade it with a buddy who happens to be Agorist, for "x" amount of another product that is cheaper via Agora means, simply because the method of him getting the goods he needed to trade with, weren't ideologically "pure".   

Besides, how feasible would be for Agorists to purley rely on self-reliance to generate goods for trade in their counter-economy activity, when could also divert goods & resources from the pink market incognito?  I would think both methods, of not relying on the pink market (Do It Yourself, or, Create It Yourself, if you will) & diverting resources from the pink market, would be used, rather than either or. 

I vaugley remember something like this being addressed in a thread before, but I'm not sure when this was.

Nuclear power may be a problem, but I hardly see nuclear power becoming viable (meaning people will be comfortable to live near a nuclear reactor that can meltdown their town, regardless of the unwarranted fear due to increases in technology & saftey protocols) for another 25 to 50 years. 

As for "ethanol from lawn clippings", that may be sooner than some think:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/9/story.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10523758

 

Nitroadict:

I thought sapping resources from the State and using them to trade into the Agora / counter-economy was one of the basic points? 

Yeah, but if you support the state by buying its monopoly goods then you aren't sapping resources away from them but are only making them stronger as your counter-economy grows and needs more of what only the state provides like the gasoline example. In most of the developing countries I've (n)ever been to the local state representatives were preadators of convience where they would only take what they could get away with through bribes while the power elite grew rich from the rent seeking on the key industries they controlled and had a monopoly over.

You want to kill the state you have to bust the monopolies.

Anonymous Coward:

Nitroadict:

I thought sapping resources from the State and using them to trade into the Agora / counter-economy was one of the basic points? 

Yeah, but if you support the state by buying its monopoly goods then you aren't sapping resources away from them but are only making them stronger as your counter-economy grows and needs more of what only the state provides like the gasoline example. In most of the developing countries I've (n)ever been to the local state representatives were preadators of convience where they would only take what they could get away with through bribes while the power elite grew rich from the rent seeking on the key industries they controlled and had a monopoly over.

You want to kill the state you have to bust the monopolies.

Busting monopolies goes without saying, and I sort of see what you mean by supporting the pink market "in any way" (more or less) can be a counter towards Agora progress, which was why I thought it would be silly if "sapping" the pink market was the only strategy proposed, which to my knowledge, it wasn't. 

I would've written it if I had known first hand (with the amount of books I try to read, I often end up forgetting most and only skimmingg the first few chapters of some...), but could any Agorists step-up & elaborate? 

AC, how would you bust the monopolies?

Nitroadict:

AC, how would you bust the monopolies?

I would push the button...

Anonymous Coward:

Heh...

Why don't you read what I wrote? What, are you scared or something?

Southern Italy...hmm...is that by Hoboken?

I just wanted a yes or no answer. I get sick of going off topic. Once I'm done with this, you can bring it back up and then I will read it, whatever it was.

 

My point about Southern Italy was that many, in fact I'd go out on a limb and say most, Italians do not pay taxes and have little to no involvement with the national government. In the late 90's, for example, as a national institution the GDP% in the underground economy took up nearly a third of the economy's GDP. Now, since the statistics characterize the entire economy, I will go out on a limb and say that for Southern Italy alone, the GDP% actually ranks much higher in the Mezzogiorno.

With an anecdotal observation from my family still in the region, nearly 3/4's of the people I can count do not pay taxes, do not vote, and hold occupations outside of the pink market in Italy.

 

This is a large percentage of people. I recommend you step outside of your Anglo-Saxon box and realize that people can and do propser - not just survive - outside of the government's eyes.

Nitroadict:

Anonymous Coward:

Nitroadict:

I thought sapping resources from the State and using them to trade into the Agora / counter-economy was one of the basic points? 

Yeah, but if you support the state by buying its monopoly goods then you aren't sapping resources away from them but are only making them stronger as your counter-economy grows and needs more of what only the state provides like the gasoline example. In most of the developing countries I've (n)ever been to the local state representatives were preadators of convience where they would only take what they could get away with through bribes while the power elite grew rich from the rent seeking on the key industries they controlled and had a monopoly over.

You want to kill the state you have to bust the monopolies.

Busting monopolies goes without saying, and I sort of see what you mean by supporting the pink market "in any way" (more or less) can be a counter towards Agora progress, which was why I thought it would be silly if "sapping" the pink market was the only strategy proposed, which to my knowledge, it wasn't. 

I would've written it if I had known first hand (with the amount of books I try to read, I often end up forgetting most and only skimmingg the first few chapters of some...), but could any Agorists step-up & elaborate? 

AC, how would you bust the monopolies?

 

Coward apparently doesn't realize that Agorism doesn't propose people become completely counter-economic by the next day.

 

Please, Coward, read SEK3's NLM, particularly chapter IV and V.

 

Anonymous Coward:

Nitroadict:

AC, how would you bust the monopolies?

I would push the button...

That's not an answer. Specify through what means you would like to do it. There is no literal button.

Niccolò:

Coward apparently doesn't realize that Agorism doesn't propose people become completely counter-economic by the next day.

I do...

What I originally presented as constructive criticism you take for disapproval methinks.

I was just wondering how it would be possible to overcome this government monopoly barrier.

Well, I would think that you already know the answer to such a question: through competition. Competition and monopoly are fundamentally opposed in principle.

Brainpolice:

That's not an answer. Specify through what means you would like to do it. There is no literal button.

I would push the figurative button?

I personally think that the monopolies will bust themselves in the crack-up bust that will be coming in the next 5-10 years as the governments of the world will finally expend all the saved capital that they can get their hands on through hook and crook. I don't think that anyone, including the most hardened statist, believes that the current levels of government expenditure are sustainable for too much longer so we will find ourselves in a situation which Rothbard describes in the link I posted where we will have a true chance to snatch Liberty out of the dustbin of history and live it once more.

What we need is to assemble the Vanguard of Liberty from amongst the many fighting factions and get the knowledge of the true causes of the problems out to the people so the State can no longer point fingers at 'speculators' and 'hoarders' and when the real crisis hits we can all collectively push the button.

Anonymous Coward:

What we need is to assemble the Vanguard of Liberty from amongst the many fighting factions and get the knowledge of the true causes of the problems out to the people so the State can no longer point fingers at 'speculators' and 'hoarders' and when the real crisis hits we can all collectively push the button.

I agree.  I wonder if all of the thousands of Agorists would be willing to commit to such a venture for 6 months.

 

Sounds like you are confusing all counter-economic activity with Agorism.  You're wrong.  If the objective of the counter-economic behavior is not to collapse the state, then it is not Agorism.  It's just plain old grey and black market activity.

liberty student:

Sounds like you are confusing all counter-economic activity with Agorism.  You're wrong.  If the objective of the counter-economic behavior is not to collapse the state, then it is not Agorism.  It's just plain old grey and black market activity.

Agorists can not answer a very simple question with a practical example. I will state the question again. What activity does an agorist do with regard to the counter-economy that undermines the state that the person who is just engaging in what you agorists would call only counter-economic avtivity does not do? 

This to me seems the whole foundation of agorism and not one person can provide a simple example of why it is different. I will provide the example again. Two farmers A and B conduct all activity in the black market. Farmer A does so because he makes more money. Farmer B does so because he claims to be a libertarian. Why do the actions of Farmer B undermine the state and the actions of Farmer A do not?

Is there any agorist that can answer that fundamental question? 

Niccolò:

Anonymous Coward:

Heh...

Why don't you read what I wrote? What, are you scared or something?

Southern Italy...hmm...is that by Hoboken?

I just wanted a yes or no answer. I get sick of going off topic. Once I'm done with this, you can bring it back up and then I will read it, whatever it was.

 

My point about Southern Italy was that many, in fact I'd go out on a limb and say most, Italians do not pay taxes and have little to no involvement with the national government. In the late 90's, for example, as a national institution the GDP% in the underground economy took up nearly a third of the economy's GDP. Now, since the statistics characterize the entire economy, I will go out on a limb and say that for Southern Italy alone, the GDP% actually ranks much higher in the Mezzogiorno.

With an anecdotal observation from my family still in the region, nearly 3/4's of the people I can count do not pay taxes, do not vote, and hold occupations outside of the pink market in Italy.

 

This is a large percentage of people. I recommend you step outside of your Anglo-Saxon box and realize that people can and do propser - not just survive - outside of the government's eyes.

According to your figures then the governement of Italy should have already succombed to the huge agorist population in Italy. Why has this not occurred?

Niccolò:

It depends on the context. Which one is an Agorist? Which one is merely a counter-economist? You do realize that ventures go much farther than just A trading for X, don't you? How does A invest the capital made from X? How does that contrast to B? Who is a libertarian in the situation? It depends on a lot of things, your inability to see that is a direct example of your stupidity.

What actions does an agorist do that a person just operating as a counter-economist does not do? Provide an example of what you are suggesting is happening is all I am asking for.

 

Niccolò:

No, action is not action and psychology is important. I suggest going back to your "formal military strategy classes," Jimmy.

I'm unaware of an example, again, that would be incriminating.

How does psychology effect the actual transaction? If you buy something in the black market does it undermine the state more because you are libertarian?

 

Your refusal to name any area no matter how large as being an agorist hotspot is absurd. Do you think saying Southern California is a hotspot of agorism is giving something away? Obviously you can not name any area because the reality is there is no place that agorists are having any impact on the state.

 

Niccolò:

Again, it's share of the market, not amount of people.

As for the 30 years, it's hardly been that long. SEK3 didn't do the best job of expanding out anywhere from Long Beach after he wrote NLM. After the loss of MLL, Agorists have largely been sidetracked until the recent founding of ALL.

What market are you referring too? The total economic output of the country? The US GDP is about 14 Trillion dollars so that would mean once the agorists have developed about a 4 Trillion dollar underground economy the state will collapse. How big is the current agorist economic output, approximately?

 

Niccolò:

Why were the Irish Catholics capable of ousting the Crown from most of Ireland then?

Do you think that was a result of ideology? Why have they not removed the Crown from the rest of Ireland then?

Maxliberty:

According to your figures then the governement of Italy should have already succombed to the huge agorist population in Italy. Why has this not occurred?

Because the population of Italia is not Agorist - it is counter-economist.

 

JimJones:

What actions does an agorist do that a person just operating as a counter-economist does not do? Provide an example of what you are suggesting is happening is all I am asking for.

 

First, an Agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught and to bring others into his line of work. This is not so for a mere counter-economist. Not only may he not have much incentive, but he may have disincentive from competition.

Second, an Agorist talks with other Agorists about removing threats and keeping secrets. Counter-economists largely work on their own.

Third, an Agorist possesses a goal to work for. Counter-economists largely do not. They want to make their booty and live their lives back in the pink economy. Agorists want to remove themselves completely from teh pink economy and move towards doing that.

 

 

A recent development in an area around Milwaukee has occurred so that some Agorists are now working together to secure posts for trade and advertisement. This does not occur for counter-economists because they are largely on their own and do not have the incentive to group with others to promote ideals past making money from a single source of revenue.

JimJones:

How does psychology effect the actual transaction? If you buy something in the black market does it undermine the state more because you are libertarian?

Yes, because you are putting those profits to more than just paying off rent. It isn't the physical transaction, it's what occurs before and after.

 

JimJones:

Your refusal to name any area no matter how large as being an agorist hotspot is absurd. Do you think saying Southern California is a hotspot of agorism is giving something away? Obviously you can not name any area because the reality is there is no place that agorists are having any impact on the state.

 

If you say so. I'm still not giving away any locations.

JimJones:

What market are you referring too? The total economic output of the country? The US GDP is about 14 Trillion dollars so that would mean once the agorists have developed about a 4 Trillion dollar underground economy the state will collapse. How big is the current agorist economic output, approximately?

Aggregate markets.

 

The second part could be used for money laundering cases, plus, I do not know total averages for any area outside of my own.

 

JimJones:

Do you think that was a result of ideology? Why have they not removed the Crown from the rest of Ireland then?

 

Yes, I do.

Because the ideology died down when Irish got at least some portion of completely seceeded land.

Niccolò:

First, an Agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught and to bring others into his line of work. This is not so for a mere counter-economist. Not only may he not have much incentive, but he may have disincentive from competition.

An agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught, you mean more than a big time Colombian drug dealer who might be facing the death penalty? That makes no sense at all.

 

Niccolò:

Second, an Agorist talks with other Agorists about removing threats and keeping secrets. Counter-economists largely work on their own.

There are counter-ecomomic groups running multi-billion dollar operations and employing thousands of people. They own buildings, aircraft, ships just like any multi-billion dollar corporation. They are hardly working on their own.

Niccolò:

Third, an Agorist possesses a goal to work for. Counter-economists largely do not. They want to make their booty and live their lives back in the pink economy. Agorists want to remove themselves completely from teh pink economy and move towards doing that.

 

This does not explain why an agorist conducting counter-economic activity undermines the state and others doing the same activity do not. What I would like you or any other agorist to do is follow one transaction all the way through and explain what the agorist is doing different. It should not be as hard as you are making it.

Niccolò:

A recent development in an area around Milwaukee has occurred so that some Agorists are now working together to secure posts for trade and advertisement.

A recent development in the world exists just like this and it's called craigslist and it had nothing to do with the philosophy of agorism.

Niccolò:

Aggregate markets.

Please explicitly state what market you are refferring too.

JimJones:

An agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught, you mean more than a big time Colombian drug dealer who might be facing the death penalty? That makes no sense at all.

 

Of course it does. Just as Muslim freedom fighters find strength in their religion and incentives, so to do Agorists. So, the Colombian druglord possesses extra incentive not to fail, for his failure will not just mean individual faulter, it will mean ideological faulter.

 

Someone that belongs to something bigger than himself will have extra incentive not to fail. Why do children feel such a need to please their parents even after their out of the house? They could please any other person and the physical repercussions would be, at first, rather similar. Why do children feel that keeping their parents prideful is important?

JimJones:

There are counter-ecomomic groups running multi-billion dollar operations and employing thousands of people. They own buildings, aircraft, ships just like any multi-billion dollar corporation. They are hardly working on their own.

No, they are, because they have no ideology to connect with eachother. Their motive is pure profit. They will sell one another out because their importance is only to themselves. 

JimJones:

This does not explain why an agorist conducting counter-economic activity undermines the state and others doing the same activity do not. What I would like you or any other agorist to do is follow one transaction all the way through and explain what the agorist is doing different. It should not be as hard as you are making it

 

Of course it does. How doesn't it? You don't think having a goal increases the effectiveness and incentives to succeed? Why do people with excellent memories still make to-do lists then?

 

An Agorist is going to use his profits to continue Agorist work. He will trade primarily with Agorists and use his profits to increase the scope and effectiveness of the Agorist movement. This perpetuates the growth of the Agorist movement thus enveloping more soldiers against the state. Using their profit to continue to counter-act the state, Agorists distinguish themselves from Counter-Economists who merely want to make money and re-enter the pink market.

 

This of course does not mention the increased potency of Agorists compared to counter-economists.

JimJones:

A recent development in the world exists just like this and it's called craigslist and it had nothing to do with the philosophy of agorism.

Craigslist is open and pink without any ideology attached.

 

What these Agorists are doing is counter-economic and black.

You're really grasping on straws now.

JimJones:

Please explicitly state what market you are refferring too.

I did, Jimmy.

Nicky, you should give it up.  The "Jim Jones" edits are weak, and you have absolutely no argument to defend yourself with.  All you have managed to do is dig the hole deeper and deeper.

 

Maxliberty:

Niccolò:

First, an Agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught and to bring others into his line of work. This is not so for a mere counter-economist. Not only may he not have much incentive, but he may have disincentive from competition.

An agorist possesses extra incentive to not get caught, you mean more than a big time Colombian drug dealer who might be facing the death penalty? That makes no sense at all.

Nice selective reading.

 

Libby:

Nicky, you should give it up.  The "Jim Jones" edits are weak, and you have absolutely no argument to defend yourself with.  All you have managed to do is dig the hole deeper and deeper.

 

Then maybe you'll be able to find a retort halfway worth reading, Libby.

 

Do goals promote potency in action? Do people with good memories use to-do lists to facilitate an urgency in their actions? Are counter-economists the same thing as Agorists?

 

Should we drink the koolaid and move to wherever Jimmy wants us too?

Niccolò:

Then maybe you'll be able to find a retort halfway worth reading, Libby.

You've lost.  Now it's just prolonging the endgame.

 

Niccolò:

Do goals promote potency in action? Do people with good memories use to-do lists to facilitate an urgency in their actions? Are counter-economists the same thing as Agorists?

No.  Yes.  No.

 

Niccolò:

Should we drink the koolaid and move to wherever Jimmy wants us too?

I dunno.  Will your parents pay my way as well? 

 

 

 

liberty student:

You've lost.  Now it's just prolonging the endgame.

I'm interested, Libby. How does one "lose" in internet forums? I think you take the internet a bit too seriously.

 

liberty student:

No.

 

And why don't goals push people to work harder? Doesn't working for something specific focus one's mind on a task as opposed to acting aimlessly without objective?

liberty student:

I dunno.  Will your parents pay my way as well? 

 

No. You need to stay back at home and clean the kitchens.

Niccolò:

liberty student:

You've lost.  Now it's just prolonging the endgame.

I'm interested, Libby. How does one "lose" in internet forums? I think you take the internet a bit too seriously.

 

liberty student:

No.

 

And why don't goals push people to work harder? Doesn't working for something specific focus one's mind on a task as opposed to acting aimlessly without objective?

liberty student:

I dunno.  Will your parents pay my way as well? 

 

No. You need to stay back at home and clean the kitchens.

Niccolo, all of your reasoning for why agorist actions are different have not explained the actual difference in the actions. Everything you have stated only states that Agorists will be more active in the counter-economy not how these actions undermine the state differently.

I understand why you refuse to create a hypothetical transaction like my farmer example and follow it all the way through to explain the difference because there is no difference with the effect on the state. I will give you credit as the only agorist who has made any attempt to explain the agorist position.

Liberty Student is right. I have basically destroyed all the agorists arguements in this debate. It should be an indication to you Niccolo that no other agorists has offered to come to the debate that the other agorists realize the flaws in agorism and are not able to defend it.

As far as aggregate market is concerned I provide the following definition "The extended name for this model is the aggregate product market, to emphasize that it reflects the exchange of gross domestic product in the macroeconomic product markets." If that is a satisfactory definition then my previous use of the US GDP is a reasonable gauge of what numerical value that the agorists need up to 1/3 of, which would be about a 4 Trillion dollar agorist economy. Again, I ask how big to the best of your knowledge is the current agorist economy?

It just occurred to me that Agorism as a movment, may suffer from a similar flaw as Socialism, in that due to it's secretive and decentralized nature, a movement oriented Agorist might never be able to ascertain the quality and scope of the movement, and using that feedback to make decisions about his own tactics and level of involvement.  Or in other words, Agorism can't calculate.

ML, I think you and I agree, it would be great if Agorism was a viable alternative.  While some take the unserious approach that criticizing Agorism means that we hate it or want to troll the topic, on the contrary, we would rather point out it's flaws and verify that it is either workable than not, rather than just follow dogma and invest our energy into something we aren't entirely sold on ourselves.

I work at seceding economically because I have to try to satisfy my conscience.  If I really thought that it could bring down the state, I would be working hard to convince others of the same.

liberty student:

ML, I think you and I agree, it would be great if Agorism was a viable alternative.

Really? I don't think he wants there to be a viable alternative. His behavior suggests he feels the need (implicitly if not consciously) to discredit any alternative to his Liberty Colony in order to make it look attractive. But I just don't see it working.

As for the calculation issue, I think you're quite obviously misapplying the socialist calculation argument to something that has nothing to do with it. Moreover, secrecy and decentralization are obviously not an insurmountable obstacle for guerrilla warfare and terrorist cells, so why would it be for agorist cells? Looks like your thesis just crashed agaisnt the rocky shore of reality and sank.

And why should agorism be the only method one utilizes against the state? Several times in this forum I've linked to this alternative to government security. (Gil's currently in the research and planning stages of his business model.) We should private arbitration and mediation services as alternatives to government courts. Perhaps start up a gold-backed mutual fund with a checking account as a first step in getting back to a gold currency and away from our current fiat currency. Promote other business models for private security. Etc.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

liberty student:

ML, I think you and I agree, it would be great if Agorism was a viable alternative.

Really? I don't think he wants there to be a viable alternative. His behavior suggests he feels the need (implicitly if not consciously) to discredit any alternative to his Liberty Colony in order to make it look attractive. But I just don't see it working.

As for the calculation issue, I think you're quite obviously misapplying the socialist calculation argument to something that has nothing to do with it. Moreover, secrecy and decentralization are obviously not an insurmountable obstacle for guerrilla warfare and terrorist cells, so why would it be for agorist cells? Looks like your thesis just crashed agaisnt the rocky shore of reality and sank.

And why should agorism be the only method one utilizes against the state? Several times in this forum I've linked to this alternative to government security. (Gil's currently in the research and planning stages of his business model.) We should private arbitration and mediation services as alternatives to government courts. Perhaps start up a gold-backed mutual fund with a checking account as a first step in getting back to a gold currency and away from our current fiat currency. Promote other business models for private security. Etc.

 

 

My goal is simple...freedom and in my own lifetime. I criticize agorism because it is not logically consistent. I have pointed out these flaws on numerous occassions. Since agorism is not based on a logical approach it can not possibly succeed. The actions that agorists advocate and the effect on the state that they say will happen are not consistent with how counter-economic activity functions.

I don't advocate that there may be only one method, in fact an actual violent revolution in some places may be quite effective. I just point out that agorism won't work and I have conclusively demonstrated why.

For your friends private services I am all for it. It will not b epossible in the U.S. but in other places those types of things have more potential. In short, the more a society distrusts it's current system the more open they are to a new system. This is the main reason that the Liberty Colony is looking for these types of environments.

I like the idea of a gold backed mutual fund. I have previously suggested to others in this forum for the creation of gold backed internet currency along the lines of e-gold or others. A gold backed mutual fund would fit perfectly with this. We could limit the mutual fund activities only to what might be considered counter-economic or grey market areas. I am looking for investors for the project. Does that interest you?

 

 

 

Maxliberty:

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

liberty student:

ML, I think you and I agree, it would be great if Agorism was a viable alternative.

Really? I don't think he wants there to be a viable alternative. His behavior suggests he feels the need (implicitly if not consciously) to discredit any alternative to his Liberty Colony in order to make it look attractive. But I just don't see it working.

As for the calculation issue, I think you're quite obviously misapplying the socialist calculation argument to something that has nothing to do with it. Moreover, secrecy and decentralization are obviously not an insurmountable obstacle for guerrilla warfare and terrorist cells, so why would it be for agorist cells? Looks like your thesis just crashed agaisnt the rocky shore of reality and sank.

And why should agorism be the only method one utilizes against the state? Several times in this forum I've linked to this alternative to government security. (Gil's currently in the research and planning stages of his business model.) We should private arbitration and mediation services as alternatives to government courts. Perhaps start up a gold-backed mutual fund with a checking account as a first step in getting back to a gold currency and away from our current fiat currency. Promote other business models for private security. Etc.

 

 

My goal is simple...freedom and in my own lifetime. I criticize agorism because it is not logically consistent. I have pointed out these flaws on numerous occassions. Since agorism is not based on a logical approach it can not possibly succeed. The actions that agorists advocate and the effect on the state that they say will happen are not consistent with how counter-economic activity functions.

I don't advocate that there may be only one method, in fact an actual violent revolution in some places may be quite effective. I just point out that agorism won't work and I have conclusively demonstrated why.

For your friends private services I am all for it. It will not b epossible in the U.S. but in other places those types of things have more potential. In short, the more a society distrusts it's current system the more open they are to a new system. This is the main reason that the Liberty Colony is looking for these types of environments.

I like the idea of a gold backed mutual fund. I have previously suggested to others in this forum for the creation of gold backed internet currency along the lines of e-gold or others. A gold backed mutual fund would fit perfectly with this. We could limit the mutual fund activities only to what might be considered counter-economic or grey market areas. I am looking for investors for the project. Does that interest you?

 

 

 

One can easily say the your LC may not entirley be  logically consistient either; I personally do not think it will be entirley sucessfull due to a number of circumstances that may actually have little to with the LC itself, such as surviving enriomental disasters & external forces. 

That doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort, however.  I think it would be greatly helped if you tried recruiting or advertising beyond the usual forums of libertarian / anarchism oriented. (This is bit of a tangent but...), I think followers of The Pirate Bay, whom donated to the TPB in interest of gaining a island for the TBP's servers (which would've attempted to be a sovereign nation), might be interested in such a colony.  Of course, that might invite too much publicity & speculation.   

I think both approaches are important, and the criticisms of Agorism being secretive are a defense mechanism that might be required for some Agorist's depending on what Phase they are in; it would be logical to assume that in the beginning stages of Agorism (in the inital Phase 0 & Phase 1 stages), such may be required towards outside onlookers whom are not immediatly involved with Agorism or are Agorist's themselves.

I think possible criticisms of secrecy towards Agorism can be pointed at the possible locations of the LC as well; from what I understand, to undertake the LC, some things will have to unvieled later on as things progress.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

Really? I don't think he wants there to be a viable alternative. His behavior suggests he feels the need (implicitly if not consciously) to discredit any alternative to his Liberty Colony in order to make it look attractive. But I just don't see it working.

Yes really.  Unless it is your contention that you are a better mind reader than I am, and can tell when ML is lying or not.  As far as discrediting anyone, I don't think he needs to.  Agorists thus far have not produced any logical or supportive answers.

I think that you repeatedly bringing up the LC but ignoring the arguments for/against Agorism is a canard.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

As for the calculation issue, I think you're quite obviously misapplying the socialist calculation argument to something that has nothing to do with it. Moreover, secrecy and decentralization are obviously not an insurmountable obstacle for guerrilla warfare and terrorist cells, so why would it be for agorist cells? Looks like your thesis just crashed agaisnt the rocky shore of reality and sank.

It's not wise to compare Agorism to guerilla warfare or terrorism.  They are completely different. Guerilla warfare and terrorism are confrontational, Agorism is non-confrontational.

As far as the calculation argument, I can't believe that I am reminding a philosopher about thinking in the abstract.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

And why should agorism be the only method one utilizes against the state? Several times in this forum I've linked to this alternative to government security. (Gil's currently in the research and planning stages of his business model.) We should private arbitration and mediation services as alternatives to government courts. Perhaps start up a gold-backed mutual fund with a checking account as a first step in getting back to a gold currency and away from our current fiat currency. Promote other business models for private security. Etc.

Yes, these are things that interest me.

Nitroadict:

I think possible criticisms of secrecy towards Agorism can be pointed at the possible locations of the LC as well; from what I understand, to undertake the LC, some things will have to unvieled later on as things progress.

I have made some changes to the Liberty Colony addressing some of the early concerns. The current process requires a two stage voting process for selecting the location. So whatever secrecy concerns people had previously no longer exist.

My goal is simple...freedom and in my own lifetime. I criticize agorism because it is not logically consistent. I have pointed out these flaws on numerous occassions. Since agorism is not based on a logical approach it can not possibly succeed. The actions that agorists advocate and the effect on the state that they say will happen are not consistent with how counter-economic activity functions.

I've yet to see you make much of anything resembling an argument in general. Just like what I'm quoting, you merely make assertions as if you've already proven them and proceed to repeat them. "It's not logically consistant". "It's not based on a logical approach". These aren't arguments, they're assertions that you just repeat over and over again while essentially ignoring the content of the book's worth of material that people write to you in response. To me, you appear like the statist who merely repeats "but it just won't work" (I.E. assuming what they must prove, as if merely appealing to the conventional wisdom constitutes an argument) when trying to debate an anarchist. Your non-argument reduces to "I win".

Maxliberty:

My goal is simple...freedom and in my own lifetime. I criticize agorism because it is not logically consistent. I have pointed out these flaws on numerous occassions. Since agorism is not based on a logical approach it can not possibly succeed. The actions that agorists advocate and the effect on the state that they say will happen are not consistent with how counter-economic activity functions.

What are these criticisms?  Where have you made them?  All that I have seen is bare assertions.  Do you need proof that a black market can overthrow a government?  Try this.  Even socialists admit that the black market was a major player in the collapse of the Soviet Union (see here and here for comments about the "second economy").  I have seen Niccolo previously write about his own experiences with ignoring and avoiding the state in Italy.

Whats more, no one advocates just praticing agorism.  Building alternative institutions (especially monetary, security, and legal institutions), education, and direct action and civil disobedience are all methods that can be praticed in tandem with agorism.  Even projects like the Seasteading and your own Liberty Colony are consistent with agorism.

JimJones:

Niccolo

No, Jimmy, I have explained the difference. The difference is the vested interest and the derivatives that come from it. I will express it to you with your farmer example - you messed it up, by the way. I now have to fix it for you.

 

Suppose farmer A is an Agorist and farmer B is merely a counter-economist. Suppose A and B are homogenous workers in every way except for their vested interests. They are of equal physical ability, equal intelligence, equal past, equal everything, sans the ideology.

Let X then represent their collective production of counter-economic goods.

Letting X represent the production of counter-economics, let Y represent the production of all markets, and let Z represent only the production within the pink economy. This will figure out so that,

Now pay attention to X1 and X2. Suppose that X is made up of two variables. Let those variables be vested interests and everything else, represented by V and C respectively.

Suppose that A possesses a higher vested interest than B. This is a safe assumption, as we have detailed their homogenity in everything except for ideology. If ideology influences ones interests, facilitating that one is more likely to give one's all for that ideology, then it would follow that the vested interests for one with ideology is higher than it is for one who hasn't.

 

Understanding this, we can detail an algebraic equation:

 

Call this result the Agorist Mentality Effect, or (AME).

 

Now, observe the change in A's production with time. It is an example of exponential growth. Let P be interchangeable with X so the P1 = X1. Let t represent time. Let x represent the production and let y represent the positive growth factor. Let the positive growth factor for A be larger than the positive growth factor for B - this principle will derive from A's added incentive and thus increase efficacy. Use numbers to illustrate the increased efficacy of A to B. Let them be arbitrary.

Arbitrarily let x1 = 2, x2 = 1, y1 = 3, y2 = 2, t = 10.

Assuming that B produces 1 widget on his widget farm and A produces 2 - deriving from the employment of the Equation of Production - and assuming that with each round B doubles his production while A triples his - again deriving from previous axioms, namely AME - we come to this conclusion:

 

Employing algebra to express the nature by which Agorists (A) produces in comparison to B's production, it becomes clear that by adding time to the equation and looking at the example through the two dimensional examples given by Jimmy, we can see that the physical production of the Agorist ends alone are enough to increase the time by which the revolution will overtake the pink economy if the pink economy possesses even less V than X2 and X1.

 

This, however, is not all there is to Agorism. It just makes up the arithmetic of the counter-economy's progression over the pink economy. Furthermore, just having an arithmetic advantage over the pink economy is not enough. There must also be a progressive movement towards literally overthrowing the government. Possessing a counter-economy is important and without it no revolution will end in real success, but it is not the entire story.

 

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:

liberty student:

ML, I think you and I agree, it would be great if Agorism was a viable alternative.

Really? I don't think he wants there to be a viable alternative. His behavior suggests he feels the need (implicitly if not consciously) to discredit any alternative to his Liberty Colony in order to make it look attractive. But I just don't see it working.

As for the calculation issue, I think you're quite obviously misapplying the socialist calculation argument to something that has nothing to do with it. Moreover, secrecy and decentralization are obviously not an insurmountable obstacle for guerrilla warfare and terrorist cells, so why would it be for agorist cells? Looks like your thesis just crashed agaisnt the rocky shore of reality and sank.

And why should agorism be the only method one utilizes against the state? Several times in this forum I've linked to this alternative to government security. (Gil's currently in the research and planning stages of his business model.) We should private arbitration and mediation services as alternatives to government courts. Perhaps start up a gold-backed mutual fund with a checking account as a first step in getting back to a gold currency and away from our current fiat currency. Promote other business models for private security. Etc.

Geoffrey, Gil's methods are within the application of Agorism. Anything designed to set up an alternative to involvement with governments is counter-economic and Agorist.

 

wombatron:

Maxliberty:

My goal is simple...freedom and in my own lifetime. I criticize agorism because it is not logically consistent. I have pointed out these flaws on numerous occassions. Since agorism is not based on a logical approach it can not possibly succeed. The actions that agorists advocate and the effect on the state that they say will happen are not consistent with how counter-economic activity functions.

What are these criticisms?  Where have you made them?  All that I have seen is bare assertions.  Do you need proof that a black market can overthrow a government?  Try this.  Even socialists admit that the black market was a major player in the collapse of the Soviet Union (see here and here for comments about the "second economy").  I have seen Niccolo previously write about his own experiences with ignoring and avoiding the state in Italy.

Whats more, no one advocates just praticing agorism.  Building alternative institutions (especially monetary, security, and legal institutions), education, and direct action and civil disobedience are all methods that can be praticed in tandem with agorism.  Even projects like the Seasteading and your own Liberty Colony are consistent with agorism.

Math & Logic > Strange little occultists on the Mises forum.

 

To clarify, I meant "even state-socialists admit...".  No offense intended, Niccolo...

You dirty commie, you

liberty student:

It just occurred to me that Agorism as a movment, may suffer from a similar flaw as Socialism, in that due to it's secretive and decentralized nature...

Oxymoronic, methinks.

liberty student:

movement oriented Agorist might never be able to ascertain the quality and scope of the movement, and using that feedback to make decisions about his own tactics and level of involvement.  Or in other words, Agorism can't calculate.

Nonsensical. Profit exists in agorism. Demand exists in agorism. Profit is the economic calculation of demand. The agorist economy is more of a market economy than the state economy and hence an agorist would more likely be able to calculate better than someone working in the state economy (i.e. because taxation is a coercive artificial trade off that shifts demand unnaturally towards the state. The true free market demand on a given product cannot be known under a state.)

liberty student:

ML, I think you and I agree

That's a first.

 

wombatron:

To clarify, I meant "even state-socialists admit...".  No offense intended, Niccolo...

You dirty commie, you

 

banned:

Nonsensical. Profit exists in agorism. Demand exists in agorism. Profit is the economic calculation of demand. The agorist economy is more of a market economy than the state economy and hence an agorist would more likely be able to calculate better than someone working in the state economy (i.e. because taxation is a coercive artificial trade off that shifts demand unnaturally towards the state. The true free market demand on a given product cannot be known under a state.)

But how could they calculate, when there are closet agorists everywhere?  How do they know who is and is not an agorist, and thus what agorist activities may require an increase in supply or decrease in demand?

That's my point.  As a movement, because it cannot centralize (as a market) and the market participants are unnaturally paranoid and secretive, the entrepreneur is at a disadvantage trying to assess prices across the movement as a whole.

Which makes developing a mass of Agorists to accomplish the endgame, somewhat self-defeating.

Perhaps I'm not explaining it well, but I'm fairly certain that what I am talking about is logically consistent.

I'll try an example.

Nicky has an agorist trading group.  But they stay under the radar, and he is not comfortable with sharing details for obvious reasons.

I have agorist wares I want to sell.  I have a few customers, but Nicky's network could provide a lot of new opportunities, not only in profit, but increasing the standard of living of both myself and my trade group, by having access to a broader range of goods and services.

But because we have to deal secretly, trade is not open (1) we may miss trade opportunities, and (2), competition is hindered because a potential market participant is unaware of the size of the market, the goods available in trade as well as the price, and whether that provides the opportunity to compete for profit.

Imagine going into store after store, looking for a product, say a broom, and none of the stores have signs, and none of the goods have advertised prices.  And few if any of the storekeepers will share any information with you, certainly none about their own store.

Is that an efficient market?

And is it capable of building a state toppling mass movement?

ML wrote something interesting which I imagine would have gone ignored.  He wants liberty in his lifetime.  I'm sure he realizes it's not guaranteed he can achieve it, but that is his goal and he is striving for it.

Which makes me wonder, Banned, is liberty in your lifetime your goal?  Do you feel that agorism is the vehicle to accomplish this?