There has been considerable discussion about how much agorist activity is really going on in the world and the overall effectiveness of agorism. So I started this thread to both allow the agorists to clarify exactly what they think agorist activity is and for those wanting to debate the various aspects of agorism and evaluate it's likely chances of achieving its goal of replacing the state.
As I understand agorism it is using the counter-economy to create insitutions that do the same essential functions as the state thus causing the state to wither away.
Agorism as an individuals way to have greater economic autonomy is I think a given. That is to say nothing more than if I do less things that are controlled by the state I will have more freedom. I don't know that we need to call that agorism but that is fine. Agorism as a way to undermine the state seems so remote as to be not taken seriously. There is plenty of counter-economic activity in the world and this doesn't seem to be creating the types of instituions that would create an anarchist society.
Agorism seems nothing more than an intellectual tap dance and to give solace to those not willing to take more direct action.
There is a lot to read, but I recommend you read Konkin's NLM.
I don't have a problem with Agorism per se, I just don't feel it is the be all end all solution. I have only met two other people online who claimed to be conducting Agoristic activity, and only one of them seemed sincere. A lot of bloggers blog about it, but I'm not convinced many of them do it, which is a "do as I say, not as I do" sorta thing.I do engage in Agorism, and I hope to engage in a lot more. But not under any illusion that I will collapse the state, but rather because morally, I cannot justify compliance with a system that does not reflect my values and conscience.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Since I'm only 17 and not financially independant, there's little I can do. Right now education (at least independant education) is my primary consern. I've been looking at the Free State Project a bit, and I'm considering joining it, or at least moving to NH when I'm on my own. I wan't to go to school for Computer Engineering/Business (havn't decided which major i'm more interested in). I've been looking into Crypto Anarchy a bit, though I'm a total newbie to cryptography. Maybe I'll go to NH and start up a business of Identiy Protection, or go into free market bank security (if there are any free market banks).
Not too sure right now.
What are you talking about? Direct action is the purpose and essence of agorism. The political process, by its very nature, is indirect action. I can hardly think of anything much more indirect than punching a hole in a piece of paper to elect another person to control the state, allegedly on their behalf. If you think that this represents an individual "directly" acting or effecting anything, then I think you're nuts. So I'm curious as to what this non-agoristic direct action you're talking about is.
Brainpolice: Agorism seems nothing more than an intellectual tap dance and to give solace to those not willing to take more direct action. What are you talking about? Direct action is the purpose and essence of agorism. The political process, by its very nature, is indirect action. I can hardly think of anything much more indirect than punching a hole in a piece of paper to elect another person to control the state, allegedly on their behalf. If you think that this represents an individual "directly" acting or effecting anything, then I think you're nuts. So I'm curious as to what this non-agoristic direct action you're talking about is.
Obviously we have to enter Mortal Kombat and fight for the freedom of Earth from the Outworld Nations and their evil prime minister, Shao Khan.
I love the propoensity certain people have to criticize positions without understanding what they entail, as though they had already refuted them. A person can not really have read much of Agorist theory, or at least understood it, if not expressing even a familiarity of why Agorists totally reject politics as useless for advancing liberty.
I agree with BP.
Agorism is the formalization and enhancement of Direct Action - the enhancement being DA for profit.
When people talk about Agorist activity, however, they are usually merely talking about counter-economic activity. The two are not necessarily the same. Agorist activity has the libertarian philosophy behind it, it is a combination of libertarianism and counter-economics. Counter-economics, however, is just the black and grey market economy.
Moreover, for those that want to discuss this online or directly incriminate yourselves about it, I would suggest you not reveal anything.
This is what people like liberty student don't get. We aren't going to tell you what we do, thereby putting an X on our backs. We are not going to tell you any specifications; however, we will talk to you about possibilities and if those possibilities happen to correlate with what we do, then that's just a neat coincidence.
For example, during the Independence Day celebrations, in many states fireworks are illegal (like Illinois); however, in neighboring states they are perfectly fine (like Wisconsin). This creates a massive, seasonal black market whereby fireworks are smuggled in from border areas in Wisconsin and shipped further down to main-hubs of economic activity like Chicago and its subsequent suburbs.
The Origins of Capitalism
And for more periodic bloggings by moi,
Leftlibertarian.org
LMAO. Fatality!
Well sometimes it seems like Agorists get the same treatment from certain other anarchists that anarchists generally get from statists: "it just doesn't work", no need for any real explaination as to why and no need to prove the practicality of the formal political process. Then we're accused of being "do nothings", as if there is a total void of possible action in the absence of the formal political process.
When you advocate a course of action at some point you have to evaluate whether what you are doing is having the impact you thought it woud. Having reread the NLM i give you the following quotes from the NLM,
"Some easily defendable territories, perhaps in space or islands in the ocean (or under the ocean) or big-city
"ghettos" may be almost entirely agorist, where the State is impotent to crush them. But most agorists will live within statist-claimed areas."
An easily defendable area composed of like minded freedom lovers sounds a lot like the proposed Liberty Colony, don't you think?
"What exists everywhere on Earth allowing the State to continue is the sanction of the victim. Every victim of statism has internalized the State to some degree." This was exactly my point in a previous thread that slaves have two choices either resist or accept their position and that people have created the condition of their own servitude. This was a point which you vehemently disagreed with.
"What exists everywhere on Earth allowing the State to continue is the sanction of the victim. Every victim of statism has internalized the State to some degree."
This was exactly my point in a previous thread that slaves have two choices either resist or accept their position and that people have created the condition of their own servitude. This was a point which you vehemently disagreed with.
"Now we can see clearly what is needed to create a libertarian society. On the one hand we need the education of the libertarian activists and the consciousness-raising of counter-economists to libertarian understanding and mutual supportiveness." This is the education and publication portion of the NLM that I am critical of in that this is insufficient to cause the desired change.
"Now we can see clearly what is needed to create a libertarian society. On the one hand we need the education of the libertarian activists and the consciousness-raising of counter-economists to libertarian understanding and mutual supportiveness."
This is the education and publication portion of the NLM that I am critical of in that this is insufficient to cause the desired change.
"Note well that libertarian activists who are not themselves full practicing countereconomists are unlikely to be convincing."
Bingo, we see no credible evidence among this group or any other that these theories are being actively applied and to what extent they are they appear to be ineffective. The agorists lack credibility by the lack of their own actions.
"All "Library Libertarians" you know, those who profess some theoretical variant of libertarianism but eschew practice, should be encouraged to practice what they preach. Scorn their inaction, praise their first halting steps towards countereconomics."
Does this sound familiar?
"Thus it is now possible for the first "ghettos" or districts of agorists to appear and count on the sympathy of the rest of society to restrain the State from a mass attack."
So when agorist groups do begin to appear they should rely on the sympathy of others in the hopes that the State will show restraint. Having previously stated that the State is an evil monster is it a reasonable to expect the State to show restraint? I don't want my liberty dependent on the State showing restraint.
"Only in the highest concentration of libertarians today, in Southern California, are the first signs of Phase 2. Assuming the situation is not reversed, the first few droplets of actual agorist societies -anarchovillages - are nucleating a viable sub-society. (1980)" Yes, Southern California is a bastion of Libertarianism. The epicenter of agorism is working brilliantly. In conclusion, I am in agreement with the agorist observations of the State which I previously stated. The practical application to the extent that it has been tried seems a complete failure. Agorism is dependent on this evolutionary idea of freedom, that we have to move through these phases in order to be free. What lifetime is this supposed to occur in? Is this something you are hoping your great-great-great grandchildren might be able to complete? Agorism has had it's nearly 30 years to demonstrate any impact at all and can not point to a single modest victory anywhere. Everywhere the State is stronger in general and in the places where agorism is most heavily advocated the State's have clearly grown the strongest. Agorism is not a viable alternative to replacing the State. As an individual aspiration for more economic freedom sure, but as a coherent strategy to eliminate the State, not even close.
"Only in the highest concentration of libertarians today, in Southern California, are the first signs of Phase 2. Assuming the situation is not reversed, the first few droplets of actual agorist societies -anarchovillages - are nucleating a viable sub-society. (1980)"
Yes, Southern California is a bastion of Libertarianism. The epicenter of agorism is working brilliantly.
In conclusion, I am in agreement with the agorist observations of the State which I previously stated. The practical application to the extent that it has been tried seems a complete failure. Agorism is dependent on this evolutionary idea of freedom, that we have to move through these phases in order to be free. What lifetime is this supposed to occur in? Is this something you are hoping your great-great-great grandchildren might be able to complete? Agorism has had it's nearly 30 years to demonstrate any impact at all and can not point to a single modest victory anywhere. Everywhere the State is stronger in general and in the places where agorism is most heavily advocated the State's have clearly grown the strongest.
Agorism is not a viable alternative to replacing the State. As an individual aspiration for more economic freedom sure, but as a coherent strategy to eliminate the State, not even close.
Niccolò: Moreover, for those that want to discuss this online or directly incriminate yourselves about it, I would suggest you not reveal anything. This is what people like liberty student don't get. We aren't going to tell you what we do, thereby putting an X on our backs. We are not going to tell you any specifications; however, we will talk to you about possibilities and if those possibilities happen to correlate with what we do, then that's just a neat coincidence.
So if it is so widespread as you suggest, why hasn't anywhere in the world evolved into these later stages? Great your importing fireworks and making a few bucks, that is great....are you delusional enough to think the State is going to collapse as a result? Let's be honest with what you are doing is all I say. All people should strive to have less interaction with the State and it's rules. That is not a strategy for ending the State. Why is scrutinizing agorism and it's actual effectiveness so difficult or unwelcome? If it is not working then you should try something else or at least change where you are trying it.
Niccolò:This is what people like liberty student don't get. We aren't going to tell you what we do, thereby putting an X on our backs. We are not going to tell you any specifications; however, we will talk to you about possibilities and if those possibilities happen to correlate with what we do, then that's just a neat coincidence.
You already told me what you do. You have an agorist cell of your friends, subsidized while you get your state education at the expense of your folks, who work in state sanctioned enterprise.
It's very easy to be radical when someone else is cooking the meals, paying the rent, and doing the laundry.
The agorists lack credibility by the lack of their own actions.
Again, this is just an assertion on your own part. You have presented no evidence that there are no practising agorists.
You have yet to present any rational arguement to prove your sweeping assertions.
Maxliberty: Niccolò: Moreover, for those that want to discuss this online or directly incriminate yourselves about it, I would suggest you not reveal anything. This is what people like liberty student don't get. We aren't going to tell you what we do, thereby putting an X on our backs. We are not going to tell you any specifications; however, we will talk to you about possibilities and if those possibilities happen to correlate with what we do, then that's just a neat coincidence. So if it is so widespread as you suggest, why hasn't anywhere in the world evolved into these later stages? Great your importing fireworks and making a few bucks, that is great....are you delusional enough to think the State is going to collapse as a result? Let's be honest with what you are doing is all I say. All people should strive to have less interaction with the State and it's rules. That is not a strategy for ending the State. Why is scrutinizing agorism and it's actual effectiveness so difficult or unwelcome? If it is not working then you should try something else or at least change where you are trying it.
It's not that it's not working, it's that it's not being tried. You're creating a self-fullfilling prophecy, as it is precisely your attitude that causes things to stagnate. Your arguement is nonsensical because you're saying that agorism doesn't work by pointing out that it isn't being attempted on a large scale. That's no different than argueing in the 18th century that slavery abolition is impossible because chattel slavery currently exists and that the abolitionist movement has small numbers.
What you're doing is the equivolent of argueing that statism is inevitable because it currently exists. It's an arguement from the status quo. Fallacious. Your exact same arguements could just as easily be used against libertarians in general, and indeed it is precisely this kind of disingenous line of arguement that libertarians are constantly being assaulted with.
As has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, it is fallacious to argue that because something doesn't currently exist or occur, it is impossible. Yea, states currently exist. No *** sherlock! That's not an argument against anarchism though, and neither is it an arguement against civil disobedience. It is illogical to point to fact that states currently exist to argue that anarchism is impossible. People currently aren't engaging in mass civil disobedience. No *** Sherlock! But that's not an arguement against mass civil disobedience. It is illogical to argue that something "just doesn't work" by pointing to the lack of people trying to do it in the first place.
You also seem to want a short-term solution. I think that's unrealistic. You're not going to get liberty quick. The fight for liberty is not a matter of pushing a red button, it indeed is something of an intergenerational and long-term project. You have to aknowledge this. I find it odd that you are so opposed to this premise. You complain about agorists not taking action and seem to expect some kind of instant transition to a free society. If anything is unfeasable, it's an instant transition to a free society, not a long-term process in which the foundations are layed first.
Inactivity is not an inadequacy particular to agorism. It is an inadequacy affecting libertarians in general. If you do nothing, you get nothing. There is basically a handful of people in the whole world doing all of the work.
This is solid gold, I can't believe I missed it so many times. I've probably read the NLM 5 or 6 times already.
All "Library Libertarians" you know, those who profess some theoretical variant of libertarianism but eschew practice, should be encouraged to practice what they preach. Scorn their inaction, praise their first halting steps towards countereconomics. Interact with them more and more as trust grows with their competence and experience.
liberty student: This is solid gold, I can't believe I missed it so many times. I've probably read the NLM 5 or 6 times already. All "Library Libertarians" you know, those who profess some theoretical variant of libertarianism but eschew practice, should be encouraged to practice what they preach. Scorn their inaction, praise their first halting steps towards countereconomics. Interact with them more and more as trust grows with their competence and experience.
Using an agorist criticism of political libertarians out of context as an arguement against agorism is illogical. The point is that the political libertarians talk about the free society and do absolutely nothing in their personal lives to help bring it about. It is the political libertarians who don't practise what they preach. And it's not just that they don't practise what they preach though, it's that their actions often are the exact opposite of what they preach, in contradiction to their ideas. They complain about democracy and then participate in it. They argue against the two party system and then vote for a Republican. They argue against top-down control and then participate in a top-down Libertarian Party. They complain about immigrants voting and then vote themselves, perhaps to stop the immigrants from voting. It's all contradictary.
Maxliberty: So if it is so widespread as you suggest
So if it is so widespread as you suggest
If what is widespread? Counter-Economics or Agorism? Did you read what I wrote?
Maxliberty: why hasn't anywhere in the world evolved into these later stages?
why hasn't anywhere in the world evolved into these later stages?
Because there is no ideology backing the counter-economy, yet.
Maxliberty: Great your importing fireworks and making a few bucks, that is great....
Great your importing fireworks and making a few bucks, that is great....
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I have not mentioned my doing anything. Where was it implied?
Maxliberty: are you delusional enough to think the State is going to collapse as a result?
are you delusional enough to think the State is going to collapse as a result?
As a result of what? A few smugglers coming in and out of the border? No.
Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, shipping in illegal merchandise, bypassing the tax system, and developing effective alternatives to involvement in the state (the graduated version being the introduction of private protection syndicates), however, you bet your little ***!
Maxliberty: Let's be honest with what you are doing is all I say.
Let's be honest with what you are doing is all I say.
You mean incriminate myself? No thanks. I'm completelie willieng to admit that I have never, nor plan to ever participate in the counter-economy. That's bad and wrong; the people in the state deserve their fair share for all the wonderfulie provided products they provide. How dare you accuse me of associating with little, punk Anarchists! I'm completelie offended, sir!
I challenge you to a duel! Srislie
Maxliberty: All people should strive to have less interaction with the State and it's rules. That is not a strategy for ending the State. Why is scrutinizing agorism and it's actual effectiveness so difficult or unwelcome? If it is not working then you should try something else or at least change where you are trying it.
All people should strive to have less interaction with the State and it's rules. That is not a strategy for ending the State. Why is scrutinizing agorism and it's actual effectiveness so difficult or unwelcome? If it is not working then you should try something else or at least change where you are trying it.
It's unwelcome because it usually comes from people who've never even made an attempt to understand it.
liberty student: Niccolò:This is what people like liberty student don't get. We aren't going to tell you what we do, thereby putting an X on our backs. We are not going to tell you any specifications; however, we will talk to you about possibilities and if those possibilities happen to correlate with what we do, then that's just a neat coincidence. You already told me what you do. You have an agorist cell of your friends, subsidized while you get your state education at the expense of your folks, who work in state sanctioned enterprise. It's very easy to be radical when someone else is cooking the meals, paying the rent, and doing the laundry.
Who said my parents are paying for my education? Who said they worked in state sanctioned enterprises?
I wonder, liberty student, how do you know so much about me?
I think I have a secret admirer!
Brainpolice:Using an agorist criticism of political libertarians out of context as an arguement against agorism is illogical. The point is that the political libertarians talk about the free society and do absolutely nothing in their personal lives to help bring it about. It is the political libertarians who don't practise what they preach. And it's not just that they don't practise what they preach though, it's that their actions often are the exact opposite of what they preach, in contradiction to their ideas.
Niccolò:You mean incriminate myself? No thanks. I'm completelie willieng to admit that I have never, nor plan to ever participate in the counter-economy. That's bad and wrong; the people in the state deserve their fair share for all the wonderfulie provided products they provide. How dare you accuse me of associating with little, punk Anarchists! I'm completelie offended, sir!
You see, it's all about marketing. What you need is a good marketdroid to get behing this agorist idea and sell it like some cheap Chinese transistor radio to the masses.
Then people would be as proud to be agorists as they are carrying around their iPhones.
Maybe get some big Wall Street marketing firm behind it to get to critical mass.
Niccolò:Who said my parents are paying for my education? Who said they worked in state sanctioned enterprises? I wonder, liberty student, how do you know so much about me? I think I have a secret admirer!
I'm just going off what you have posted about yourself, and what others have posted to you. I take it you aren't disputing what I wrote, only expressing surprise that I would call you on it?
I'm not aware of anything you have done that merits admiration, and thus, can't imagine why I would admire you, secret or otherwise.
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