I'm not a fan of child support laws, and my basic beleif is that a father shouldn't have to pay for a child he doesn't want. And that I certainly shouldn't have to pay for a government to step in and force him to be a responsible adult.
However many people find this view to be too "cold," was there anything in place before the government took over and are there any facts and statisitics that show how the government getting involved is actually worse for the child? And how could a stateless free-market society actually improve this system? Marriage Insurance?
Thanks
banned: Maxliberty:Yes, you will be punished. The fact that I rescue the baby from your attempt to kill the child does not leave you blameless. And as I've said, it's neither an attempt to kill, nor a criminal action to abandon a child. You have failed to support your claim that it is with any legal analysis whatsoever, and only responded to my criticism of your attempt to falsly associate abandonment with criminality by saying I don't believe people should be accountable for their actions and that my argument somehow lacks logical support (kind of ironic if you ask me, given that that claim wasn't logically backed itself). All you do is propose straw man's, craft false emotional dichotomies, and refer to my argument as a point where individuals in the freedom movement "fall short". All you've offered is nonesense, and I would hope that when you immorally weild the power of your quasi-state to punish the parents, someone would come to their aid (despite how much I would detest them). Anyways, going after non-criminals who were likely too poor to support their child in the first place isn't a good business model and you'll probably be out competed. Maxliberty:Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK. And? What's the link between that and abandonment. Murder is an act, while abandonment is the lack of action or the refusal to act in supporting a child further.
Maxliberty:Yes, you will be punished. The fact that I rescue the baby from your attempt to kill the child does not leave you blameless.
And as I've said, it's neither an attempt to kill, nor a criminal action to abandon a child. You have failed to support your claim that it is with any legal analysis whatsoever, and only responded to my criticism of your attempt to falsly associate abandonment with criminality by saying I don't believe people should be accountable for their actions and that my argument somehow lacks logical support (kind of ironic if you ask me, given that that claim wasn't logically backed itself).
All you do is propose straw man's, craft false emotional dichotomies, and refer to my argument as a point where individuals in the freedom movement "fall short".
All you've offered is nonesense, and I would hope that when you immorally weild the power of your quasi-state to punish the parents, someone would come to their aid (despite how much I would detest them).
Anyways, going after non-criminals who were likely too poor to support their child in the first place isn't a good business model and you'll probably be out competed.
Maxliberty:Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK.
And? What's the link between that and abandonment. Murder is an act, while abandonment is the lack of action or the refusal to act in supporting a child further.
I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple.
As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.
And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.
Maxliberty: I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple. As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder. And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.
You need to stop using your "liberty colony" as an example. As far as I can tell, very few of us agree with your "business model" and your ideas of freedom.
Sometimes "majority" simply means that all the fools are on the same side
Maxliberty:I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care.
Okay, maybe you don't understand how rights figure into legality and what negative rights entail.
In a negative rights system (a libertarian system), an act of aggression can only be aggressive if there is a non-consenting victim (hence it is called an act of aggression). If there is no victim, it is not a prohibitable act and no obligation or reprimand can be linked to the action. That is the case with sex. Conception is not a forceful act upon the conceived being because that being posseses no rights prior to them being conceived and therefore cannot make a claim that the act of sex was forceful. Their claim would be ex post facto, so please explain to me why it is at all legitimate to make a positive ex post facto legal claim.
Maxliberty:As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.
Abandoning is the ABSENSE OF ACTION TOWARDS THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. How in the world could you consider it a HARMFUL ACT? That's terribly faulty logic. If:
a = an action towards x (specifics are irrelevant)
b == an action towards x
how do you suppose a = b ?
Maxliberty:And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers.
Which is why I'm not proposing defending murders. I think you'll find yourself alone in prosecuting non-criminals
Maxliberty:In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.
Frankly, I don't want to go to some undeveloped area I know nothing about and have to work a year in order to be given freedom.
katja328: Maxliberty: I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple. As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder. And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot. You need to stop using your "liberty colony" as an example. As far as I can tell, very few of us agree with your "business model" and your ideas of freedom.
The Liberty Colony is the only effort to create a free society currently in existence. You are more than welcome to enlighten us about the free society you hope to create and what actions you are undertaking to make it a reality. I won't hold my breath.
banned: Maxliberty:I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. Okay, maybe you don't understand how rights figure into legality and what negative rights entail. In a negative rights system (a libertarian system), an act of aggression can only be aggressive if there is a non-consenting victim (hence it is called an act of aggression). If there is no victim, it is not a prohibitable act and no obligation or reprimand can be linked to the action. That is the case with sex. Conception is not a forceful act upon the conceived being because that being posseses no rights prior to them being conceived and therefore cannot make a claim that the act of sex was forceful. Their claim would be ex post facto, so please explain to me why it is at all legitimate to make a positive ex post facto legal claim. Maxliberty:As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder. Abandoning is the ABSENSE OF ACTION TOWARDS THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. How in the world could you consider it a HARMFUL ACT? That's terribly faulty logic. If: a = an action towards x (specifics are irrelevant) b == an action towards x how do you suppose a = b ? Maxliberty:And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. Which is why I'm not proposing defending murders. I think you'll find yourself alone in prosecuting non-criminals Maxliberty:In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot. Frankly, I don't want to go to some undeveloped area I know nothing about and have to work a year in order to be given freedom.
No matter how many ways you choose to phrase it I will not condone or accept your position that leaving children to die is acceptable. I have explained my position and you have explained yours and repeatedly tried to back away from your arguement because you don't like where it ends.
The Liberty Colony doesn't require anyone to go anywhere and work for a year to be given freedom. The Liberty Colony's goal is to establish a free society based on individual freedom.
Abandoning people under your care can certainly cause harm. Would you want your doctor and staff to leave during surgery? Would you want the pilot to bail out on your flight? If you think taking a baby out to the middle of nowhere and abandoning it so it dies hasn't caused any harm.....then you have lost all touch with reality.
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