Boycotting Money?

 Do you think it is possible to boycott the use of the dollar. I'm sure massive amounts of support could come about through Paul, and propaganda of the cause by internet. Do you think it would be possible to do, or at least have a state start to make it's own currency until certain demands are met, like abolishing the FED. Not that this will happen, but it could be started if certain mining and minting companies would support it illegally. I know the Liberty Dollar was killed, but if we had a well known public movement, I think it could create some attention to the cause. Isn't there some kind of Yellow Pages of companies and businesses that use the Liberty dollar, any major businesses perhaps? Maybe the use of foreign currency, silver?

The media attention would be fanatical! "Are these people serious, trying to boycott money?" God forbid if a state would actually have the balls to coin its own currency, it might start a civil war!!

And does anyone know if boycotting use of a domestic currency has ever been tried here or some other place in history. And if so, was it successful?

Andrew:

 Do you think it is possible to boycott the use of the dollar. I'm sure massive amounts of support could come about through Paul, and propaganda of the cause by internet. Do you think it would be possible to do, or at least have a state start to make it's own currency until certain demands are met, like abolishing the FED. Not that this will happen, but it could be started if certain mining and minting companies would support it illegally. I know the Liberty Dollar was killed, but if we had a well known public movement, I think it could create some attention to the cause. Isn't there some kind of Yellow Pages of companies and businesses that use the Liberty dollar, any major businesses perhaps? Maybe the use of foreign currency, silver?

The media attention would be fanatical! "Are these people serious, trying to boycott money?" God forbid if a state would actually have the balls to coin its own currency, it might start a civil war!!

And does anyone know if boycotting use of a domestic currency has ever been tried here or some other place in history. And if so, was it successful?

I think it would be sucessful if the boycott involved using radically different alternatives to money, instead of an alternative fiat, silver, etc. 

What those would be, I'm not so sure...  there are alternatives out there (such as the time-baed currency), but as proven in an alternative thread, time-based currency has major problems in being applicable in real life.

 

I wrote about this on my blog.

The problem is that taxes and regulations make it practically impossible to profitably operate a gold or silver warehouse receipt bank.

If you want to set up an alternate monetary system, it has to be 100% off-the-books.

 

Nitroadict:

 

I think it would be sucessful if the boycott involved using radically different alternatives to money, instead of an alternative fiat, silver, etc. 

 

Maybe cigarettes could be used, or bottle caps, batteries. Amounts of gasoline or oil maybe. Labor notes sound like a good idea only in small communities.  

What's wrong with gold or silver?  You can get 1 ounce silver rounds for under $20/ounce.

fsk:

What's wrong with gold or silver?  You can get 1 ounce silver rounds for under $20/ounce.

Nothing is wrong with it. It is just having a massive amount of people circulating it, which I doubt most people have. I have 50 rounds of 1 ounce silver. Essentially you would need a minting service to back you up. You give them dollars, they give you coins, you trade your coins for dollars in change, take it back to the mint, ect. That would dilute the supply of dollars if it was a huge movement. Yet you would need to set a average price based on spot prices, like if it is 16.75 it is 16$.

I'm fixing currency prices. Ha now I'm the government.

fsk:

What's wrong with gold or silver?  You can get 1 ounce silver rounds for under $20/ounce.

Nothing is wrong with it. It is just having a massive amount of people circulating it, which I doubt most people have. I have 50 rounds of 1 ounce silver. Essentially you would need a minting service to back you up. You give them dollars, they give you coins, you trade your coins for dollars in change, take it back to the mint, ect. That would dilute the supply of dollars if it was a huge movement. Yet you would need to set a average price based on spot prices, like if it is 16.75 it is 16$.

I'm fixing currency prices. Ha now I'm the government.

Andrew:

Nitroadict:

 

I think it would be sucessful if the boycott involved using radically different alternatives to money, instead of an alternative fiat, silver, etc. 

 

Maybe cigarettes could be used, or bottle caps, batteries. Amounts of gasoline or oil maybe. Labor notes sound like a good idea only in small communities.  

Bartering seems like a good system to use, as most people tend to regonize it even if they do not read up on economics very much.  The problem with bartering though, is that apparently the IRS still taxes such exchange (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartering):

In the United States, it is generally not possible to avoid income taxes by bartering one's services. According to the IRS, "The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties."^[1] The barter in many cases must be reported on Form 1099-B and Schedule C."

This of course brings back fsk's point that even bartering, let alone any other alternative currency, would have to be 100% off the books.  As far as nationally, this would be rather hard to pull off as a single movement. 

However, at the very local level with friends & people you know, I'd imagine this would be considerably easier to pull off.  I think something resembling a national movement of bartering off the books could be accomplished by using cryptography, memetic communication (such as an innocent logo on buisness cards, posted on blogs and/or sites, or signs in one's yards or place of buisness), and other alternative communication methods. 

This actually greatly resembles, if not is the same thing, as one of the Agorist actions of encouraging black market activity.  I would think that as hyperinflation approaches (I'm pretty sure we're going to be hit big time), it would be far more effective at simple encouraging bartering & showing the advantages of keeping tax-free bartering off the books without spouting Agora terminology and/or philosphy, in order to encourage Agora like action. 

The advantage of not using such Agora associated imagery would also help keep it under the radar of opposing parties and/or the authorities. 

I myself have been recently dropping hints that bartering might be the best option my friends & I will have when the economic proverbial hits the fan.  While I do not look forward to such, I can't say I'm not positive about the event as being an opportunity to help spread some positive off the books economic activity.

 

Nitroadict:

 

Nitroadict:

 

I think it would be sucessful if the boycott involved using radically different alternatives to money, instead of an alternative fiat, silver, etc. 

 

Maybe cigarettes could be used, or bottle caps, batteries. Amounts of gasoline or oil maybe. Labor notes sound like a good idea only in small communities.  

Bartering seems like a good system to use, as most people tend to regonize it even if they do not read up on economics very much.  The problem with bartering though, is that apparently the IRS still taxes such exchange (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartering):

In the United States, it is generally not possible to avoid income taxes by bartering one's services. According to the IRS, "The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties."^[1] The barter in many cases must be reported on Form 1099-B and Schedule C."

 

 

Who the hell would do that?, and how the hell would they do that?

You'd have to start barter in flee markets and privately owned businesses due to corporate hierarchy.

Andrew:

Nitroadict:

 

Nitroadict:

 

I think it would be sucessful if the boycott involved using radically different alternatives to money, instead of an alternative fiat, silver, etc. 

 

Maybe cigarettes could be used, or bottle caps, batteries. Amounts of gasoline or oil maybe. Labor notes sound like a good idea only in small communities.  

Bartering seems like a good system to use, as most people tend to regonize it even if they do not read up on economics very much.  The problem with bartering though, is that apparently the IRS still taxes such exchange (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartering):

In the United States, it is generally not possible to avoid income taxes by bartering one's services. According to the IRS, "The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties."^[1] The barter in many cases must be reported on Form 1099-B and Schedule C."

 

 

Who the hell would do that?, and how the hell would they do that?

You'd have to start barter in flee markets and privately owned businesses due to corporate hierarchy.

I actually confess ignorance in how the IRS would be able to tax bartering on local scales; on larger scales, most likley with companies and previous l established buisnesses, I'd imagine possibly, but locally, de-centralized bartering motivated by a desperation to improve living conditions from hyperinflationary economy?  Impossible; in hindsight, I think the quote I included is a mild scare tactic at best. 

I agree with flee markets, and think those would be the best places in order to exemplify how effective bartering is and how it can used in place of the inflationary currency.  I think the ultimate task will be to encourage bartering after the economy suposedly "recovers", if not at least in conjuction with whatever currency (if the dollar isn't used and/or doesn't recover) that is in place at the time.

 

You'd have to be a fool to voluntarily report barter "income" to the IRS.

The legal justification for "barter transactions are taxable income" is very nebulous.  If the IRS went after me, I'd defend myself sui juris and argue a "jury nullification" defense.  (Lawyers are barred from using a "jury nullifcation" defense.  If you want to use that argument in court, you have to defend yourself.)

The IRS's position is, literally, you need to get permission from them in order to work.

Income taxes are over 50% if you include everything.  There is a *HUGE* incentive for off-the-books work.

 

fsk:

You'd have to be a fool to voluntarily report barter "income" to the IRS.

The legal justification for "barter transactions are taxable income" is very nebulous.  If the IRS went after me, I'd defend myself sui juris and argue a "jury nullification" defense.  (Lawyers are barred from using a "jury nullifcation" defense.  If you want to use that argument in court, you have to defend yourself.)

The IRS's position is, literally, you need to get permission from them in order to work.

Income taxes are over 50% if you include everything.  There is a *HUGE* incentive for off-the-books work.

 

Indeed; so you are saying that if one were to get permission from a jury concerning non-taxable bartering, you would be exempted from being forced to give the IRS the taxable income?

I agree though, and would defintley point out the incentive for off-the-books work with my normally by-the-books friends.

 

 

That isn't quite correct.  I can't ask a jury "is barter income taxable" until *AFTER* the IRS decides to go after me.  I can't get a declaratory ruling ahead of time.

There's also a double jeopardy problem.  The IRS pursues tax evasion charges against me for not reporting barter income.  I go to trial and am acquitted.  I continue to perform off-the-books barter transactions.  The IRS can *STILL* pursue new criminal charges against me.  The IRS can still pursue criminal charges against other people.

A jury's ruling doesn't count as legal precedent.

Further, if the IRS does decide to harass me, I don't recover time and money spent defending myself.  If I spend $50k of time or money defending myself against frivolous criminal charges, that's not a recoverable expense if I'm acquitted.

fsk:

That isn't quite correct.  I can't ask a jury "is barter income taxable" until *AFTER* the IRS decides to go after me.  I can't get a declaratory ruling ahead of time.

There's also a double jeopardy problem.  The IRS pursues tax evasion charges against me for not reporting barter income.  I go to trial and am acquitted.  I continue to perform off-the-books barter transactions.  The IRS can *STILL* pursue new criminal charges against me.  The IRS can still pursue criminal charges against other people.

A jury's ruling doesn't count as legal precedent.

Further, if the IRS does decide to harass me, I don't recover time and money spent defending myself.  If I spend $50k of time or money defending myself against frivolous criminal charges, that's not a recoverable expense if I'm acquitted.

Yea, although it could be agrued that said court battles could generate sympathy for off-the-books bartering (and encourage more people to do, in a similar manner to file sharing, where benefits are generally outweighing the dangers of getting caught), it would require a few martrys (for lack of a better word) to get hit with IRS charges, and hopefully, sympathetic jury rulings, while public attention is drawn to it. 

This is of course, assuming enough of the public do not buy into the inevitable media spin on such proceedings, which obviously, some would. 

It's still impractical for one if they get caught though, you are correct.  This highlights the problems & pains of keeping it under-wraps for as long as possible, in addition to keeping it as de-centralized as possible as well.

 

Nitroadict:

Yea, although it could be agrued that said court battles could generate sympathy for off-the-books bartering (and encourage more people to do, in a similar manner to file sharing, where benefits are generally outweighing the dangers of getting caught), it would require a few martrys (for lack of a better word) to get hit with IRS charges, and hopefully, sympathetic jury rulings, while public attention is drawn to it. 

This is of course, assuming enough of the public do not buy into the inevitable media spin on such proceedings, which obviously, some would.

It's still impractical for one if they get caught though, you are correct.  This highlights the problems & pains of keeping it under-wraps for as long as possible, in addition to keeping it as de-centralized as possible as well.

Something like this would be quite interesting if it was premeditated.  For example, if legal expertise and arguments were assembled in advance, as well as scripting for the trial, and the act was committed in a favorable jurisdiction, then the opportunity "initiate" prosecution for the purpose of challenging the law would be quite interesting.

Anything meaningful, will require planning and resources.  Participation while not essential, is another handy component.

I'm intrigued by the notion of 100% off the books.  How can we leverage the internet to such an advantage?  FSK has written about the public or private perspectives on trade alliances.  I wonder if the existing bit-torrent network was leveraged, if thousands of users could hide within that massive ecosystem, making it hard to distinguish between file sharing, and barter trading....

The only way to attack the torrent is at the tracker level.  Disrupt the trackers and you raise the ire of millions of file sharers.

Curious....

liberty student:

Nitroadict:

Yea, although it could be agrued that said court battles could generate sympathy for off-the-books bartering (and encourage more people to do, in a similar manner to file sharing, where benefits are generally outweighing the dangers of getting caught), it would require a few martrys (for lack of a better word) to get hit with IRS charges, and hopefully, sympathetic jury rulings, while public attention is drawn to it. 

This is of course, assuming enough of the public do not buy into the inevitable media spin on such proceedings, which obviously, some would.

It's still impractical for one if they get caught though, you are correct.  This highlights the problems & pains of keeping it under-wraps for as long as possible, in addition to keeping it as de-centralized as possible as well.

Something like this would be quite interesting if it was premeditated.  For example, if legal expertise and arguments were assembled in advance, as well as scripting for the trial, and the act was committed in a favorable jurisdiction, then the opportunity "initiate" prosecution for the purpose of challenging the law would be quite interesting.

Anything meaningful, will require planning and resources.  Participation while not essential, is another handy component.

I'm intrigued by the notion of 100% off the books.  How can we leverage the internet to such an advantage?  FSK has written about the public or private perspectives on trade alliances.  I wonder if the existing bit-torrent network was leveraged, if thousands of users could hide within that massive ecosystem, making it hard to distinguish between file sharing, and barter trading....

The only way to attack the torrent is at the tracker level.  Disrupt the trackers and you raise the ire of millions of file sharers.

Curious....

Actually, I totally disagree with the use of trackers as a long-term strategy.  Trackers, while useful, are the main achilles heel of bit-torrent, as trackers are centralized places for one to search torrents & meta-data.  Half-solutions, such as DHT, could be utilized, but I think a much more radical solution to rid bit-torrent of this centralization would be needed for such an under-taking that you are proposing (which I think is worth while to consider). 

I'm not too versed in the protocol's and technology, but from a theoretical point of view, a new technology that relies on operating agents to spread said torrents would be required in order to keep de-centralzation more plausible, where many people can operate as their own tracker, in a sense.  However, initally, I think either a track or a specific forum would do well for organizing a starting point online for inital recruitment and/or as the gateway towards larger scale things.

One example I'm thinking of would resemble the use of something like addresses used for postage.  For instance, if I had a facebook page, and independatly included a certain key phrase in my profile (let's say: "A is A; Alternative Actions Welcomed"), this could be an indicator that I might be one who favors bartering as an alternative currency, and possibly through craiglists, could arrange a meeting (if we are local enough) to conduct buisness. 

The only problem with the above is that it would be strictly limited to localized activity.  As for national activity, I imagine if I lived in say, California, and a potential customer lived in Arizona, we could pass a certain item through various other communities (hop scothing, as it were), until an item got to a local enough community for the customer to pick up. 

However, that would require a shipping service, or the use of already existing shipping services.  Needless to say, what I proposed isn't entirley new nor very specific, but it would require a good amount of inital investment to lay down the infrastrcture, or at least a solid method of steps that would make a system feasible to operate. 

As for entirley relying on the Internet, this would become increasingly hard with the prospect of IP Cops (sigh...), and more contorting powers competing for control over the Internet.  Cryptography, hidden messages, phrases, memes & patterns of behavior would be the best ways in which to combat this, I would think.

I would highly stress memetics as essentialy to sucess, other than offline activity, as use of memetics may eventually yeild spontaneous volunteers based on word of mouth or pure curiosity of said exclusive alternative currency & activity.

One thing I would think that would be a great service that could stimulate said 100% alt. bartering would be the transaction of uncensored information.  While such a market won't truly exist until the grip on the Internet is unberable, there might be incentive sooner for such a thing, and there might be enough people that see the importance of using such activity to get information.

I think there some type of payment system being worked on by someone else on the forums that was similar to some of what I proposed, but I mainly stress the contextual clues of words as a way of keeping an "unseen" community strung together by breadcrumbs that would almost impossible for someone not in the know to detect.

 

It seems J. Orlin Grabbe (RIP) was moving in that direction.

 

J. Orlin Grabbe's site is gone, but http://www.billstclair.com/grabbe is an archive (and it's prolly on the Way Back Machine, too), with:

Quantum articles, Miscellaneous, Mission Statement, Privacy & Crypto, Digital Finance, Gold Market, Chaos & Fractals, Java Encryption Code, etc.

Good stuff on developng a "transparent" bank on-line.

 

And FSK: Your blog *is* interesting. I'll be spending some time there. Thanks.

Nitroadict:

Actually, I totally disagree with the use of trackers as a long-term strategy.  Trackers, while useful, are the main achilles heel of bit-torrent, as trackers are centralized places for one to search torrents & meta-data.  Half-solutions, such as DHT, could be utilized, but I think a much more radical solution to rid bit-torrent of this centralization would be needed for such an under-taking that you are proposing (which I think is worth while to consider).

It would be a boon, but not totally necessary.  It's like going into a huge market, and selling something out of your pocket.  Now imagine thousands of those sales occuring amidst all of the white market activity.  It would be nearly impossible to police, prevent or even intimidate.  Just as policing IP transgression has been nearly impossible to do, so to would grey and black market transactions.

The only way to prevent future transactions, is to completely close down the network. With millions of white market (technically grey or black, but not engaging in agoristic activity) users, the outcry and backlash provides it's own defense mechanism.

Nitroadict:

One example I'm thinking of would resemble the use of something like addresses used for postage.  For instance, if I had a facebook page, and independatly included a certain key phrase in my profile (let's say: "A is A; Alternative Actions Welcomed"), this could be an indicator that I might be one who favors bartering as an alternative currency, and possibly through craiglists, could arrange a meeting (if we are local enough) to conduct buisness.

The only problem with the above is that it would be strictly limited to localized activity.  As for national activity, I imagine if I lived in say, California, and a potential customer lived in Arizona, we could pass a certain item through various other communities (hop scothing, as it were), until an item got to a local enough community for the customer to pick up.

However, that would require a shipping service, or the use of already existing shipping services.  Needless to say, what I proposed isn't entirley new nor very specific, but it would require a good amount of inital investment to lay down the infrastrcture, or at least a solid method of steps that would make a system feasible to operate.

In the right petri dish, who knows what sort of new lifeforms will emerge?  I wouldnt necessarily get locked into the notion of condcting barter trade as we do now.  New goods are in much more demand than older ones, and I see the future of agorism possibly being the exchange of services, not only or primarily tangible goods.

Nitroadict:

As for entirley relying on the Internet, this would become increasingly hard with the prospect of IP Cops (sigh...), and more contorting powers competing for control over the Internet.  Cryptography, hidden messages, phrases, memes & patterns of behavior would be the best ways in which to combat this, I would think.

I'm not sure that secrecy will accomplish much.  Nor the backlash against censorship.  Secret handshakes and such will never lead to a popular revolution.  The challenge is to conduct business in the light, where infiltrators can be seen clearly, and identified by everyone.

Nitroadict:

I think there some type of payment system being worked on by someone else on the forums that was similar to some of what I proposed, but I mainly stress the contextual clues of words as a way of keeping an "unseen" community strung together by breadcrumbs that would almost impossible for someone not in the know to detect.

Infiltration is an area of government expertise.  They own everything from the best software, hardware and engineers, to snoop concepts and ideas we can't even envision.  The reality is, someone will have to be willing to meet in the town square at high noon, in front of everyone, and conduct counter state activity.  As long as it's done underground, there is limited growth, the perception of impropriety and the state can marginalize and direct such activity outside the scrutiny of society.

liberty student:

Nitroadict:

Actually, I totally disagree with the use of trackers as a long-term strategy.  Trackers, while useful, are the main achilles heel of bit-torrent, as trackers are centralized places for one to search torrents & meta-data.  Half-solutions, such as DHT, could be utilized, but I think a much more radical solution to rid bit-torrent of this centralization would be needed for such an under-taking that you are proposing (which I think is worth while to consider).

It would be a boon, but not totally necessary.  It's like going into a huge market, and selling something out of your pocket.  Now imagine thousands of those sales occuring amidst all of the white market activity.  It would be nearly impossible to police, prevent or even intimidate.  Just as policing IP transgression has been nearly impossible to do, so to would grey and black market transactions.

The only way to prevent future transactions, is to completely close down the network. With millions of white market (technically grey or black, but not engaging in agoristic activity) users, the outcry and backlash provides it's own defense mechanism.

Nitroadict:

One example I'm thinking of would resemble the use of something like addresses used for postage.  For instance, if I had a facebook page, and independatly included a certain key phrase in my profile (let's say: "A is A; Alternative Actions Welcomed"), this could be an indicator that I might be one who favors bartering as an alternative currency, and possibly through craiglists, could arrange a meeting (if we are local enough) to conduct buisness.

The only problem with the above is that it would be strictly limited to localized activity.  As for national activity, I imagine if I lived in say, California, and a potential customer lived in Arizona, we could pass a certain item through various other communities (hop scothing, as it were), until an item got to a local enough community for the customer to pick up.

However, that would require a shipping service, or the use of already existing shipping services.  Needless to say, what I proposed isn't entirley new nor very specific, but it would require a good amount of inital investment to lay down the infrastrcture, or at least a solid method of steps that would make a system feasible to operate.

In the right petri dish, who knows what sort of new lifeforms will emerge?  I wouldnt necessarily get locked into the notion of condcting barter trade as we do now.  New goods are in much more demand than older ones, and I see the future of agorism possibly being the exchange of services, not only or primarily tangible goods.

Nitroadict:

As for entirley relying on the Internet, this would become increasingly hard with the prospect of IP Cops (sigh...), and more contorting powers competing for control over the Internet.  Cryptography, hidden messages, phrases, memes & patterns of behavior would be the best ways in which to combat this, I would think.

I'm not sure that secrecy will accomplish much.  Nor the backlash against censorship.  Secret handshakes and such will never lead to a popular revolution.  The challenge is to conduct business in the light, where infiltrators can be seen clearly, and identified by everyone.

Nitroadict:

I think there some type of payment system being worked on by someone else on the forums that was similar to some of what I proposed, but I mainly stress the contextual clues of words as a way of keeping an "unseen" community strung together by breadcrumbs that would almost impossible for someone not in the know to detect.

Infiltration is an area of government expertise.  They own everything from the best software, hardware and engineers, to snoop concepts and ideas we can't even envision.  The reality is, someone will have to be willing to meet in the town square at high noon, in front of everyone, and conduct counter state activity.  As long as it's done underground, there is limited growth, the perception of impropriety and the state can marginalize and direct such activity outside the scrutiny of society.

You are right, I think I was getting caught up in the concept of infilteration & secrecy by my previous theories concerning memetics, rather than seeing the obvious advantage of blurring the white market (or a tool that is used by the white market, The Internet, in this case) into the grey & black markets, compeltly forgetting some fundamentals of Agora in the process, lol. 

The exchange of services would be easier to pull off, and I just realized that the eventual growth of the exchange of services would be able to solve the problem of the exchange of goods.   

I also realized that doing this broad daylight would be initally rocky, but it will be necessary to make a dent in mis-conceptions concerning that Agora activity is "sinister" in anyway, which is what the State would have a good ol' time "proving" with assorted propoganda. 

 

I think some people don't realize that to be successful, Agorism will need to have a large degree of civil disobedience reminiscent of the civil rights movement. It can't be based purely on underground avoidance of the state but will need people willing to openly defy the state and be sent to jail peacefully (hopefully not for too long). I'm not exactly proposing the "martyr" strategy but there will have to be some martyrs if it ever gets of the ground. There will be successful and failed attempts at jury nullification, failure and success of the state to crush peaceful agorists etc.