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Could anarchy work in human society?

Latest post Sun, May 18 2008 11:15 AM by Stranger. 209 replies.
  • Fri, May 9 2008 1:07 AM

    • Danno
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    Could anarchy work in human society?

    Okay - in another forum, a side issue came up, largely because of my ignorance.  While I'd love to discuss the possibilities, all of the anarchists I've encountered to date have been nihilists, with no coherent idea of how anarchist society would work.  Finding a self-identified anarchist with coherent vision of how it would work was novel and delightful, but I dislike being underinformed. The thread was already dedicated to another topic, so I decided to move the discussion to here.

    I can't, without permission, quote (or even identify) the person I was having the discussion with, but I can quote myself - and I'll start with that.  Do keep in mind that, in intelligent anarchist theory, I'm a bare neophyte, horribly ignorant.

    So, if I were living in your vision of a free society, and the guy walking past my house was of the opinion that I was aggressing against him by smoking a cigarette, and shot at me, and I shot back and killed him, I'd have to come to some sort of agreement with his heirs about whether or not I was justified.  If they refused to find agreement and shot me, then my heirs could go after them.

    Their reply was, essentially, that the people who were irrational enough to act in that fashion would quickly find themselves extinct, improving the gene pool, and rational, peacable people would quickly become the overwhelming majority.

    All I can say is that I've never seen it.  It may be my neighborhood (Minneapolis, Minnesnowta, USofA), but if I find a discussion with my neighbors on any central topic, and find one in ten espousing rational ideas, I'm having a good day.  Looking at the current edition of the local newspaper (http://www.southsidepride.com), I find:

    Page 3, the article _Poisoning the poor_ - last column, halfway down - "The rich and powerful are trampling on the rights of the downtrodden."  (I swear, it's there.)

    Pages 8 and 9, two separate articles, both of which mention that the fish in Powderhorn Lake (a small lake by local standards) were killed off accidentally in an effort to stop Brazilian elodea, a pernicious plant discovered there.  Both articles admit that there are plans to restock the lake, but both are highly annoyed in tone about the whole thing - without mentioning other options that could have been pursued.

    Pages 12 and 13, the longest article in the paper, devoted to an attempt to charge George W. Bush with murder in the third degree, conspiracy to raise oil prices (not illegal, or everyone wouldn't be doing it), and conspiracy to distribute drugs in Hennepin County (which covers Minneapolis).  The guy is, to all appearances, serious.

    Page 16 - _Rigged health care comissions circumvent democracy - again_ - an examination of the health care crisis, showing both sides of the market vs public good question, featuring (column 4, paragraph3) "It would be naive to think these Task Forces are simply oblivious of the gold standard solution to the health care crisis: the Single-Payer, government-funded approach."  The irony of using the term "gold standard" as a measure of quality is apparently lost on them.

    Page 17 - _Critical Mass defendant found not guilty_ - an organizer of a bicycle mass ride event, in which large numbers of  bicycles jam traffic (in this case, downtown during Friday rush hour) "in support of non-motorized transportation" was acquitted of assaulting a police officer, obstructing the legal process, and fleeing a police officer.  No evidence was cited about any of these crimes, nor was there any mention of the illegality of their purpose, obstructing traffic.  The executive director of the Minnesota ACLU, Charles Samuelson, was quoted as saying "you can't punish intent." (column 4, paragraph 3) - as if he'd never heard of the difference between 1st degree and 3rd degree murder.

    Not bad for a 20-page neighborhood rag, and I skipped several which would have required much more typing from me.

    These are the people you expect to act rationally and reasonably?  They're my neighbors - whose political and economic ideas are remarkably common around here.  From what I've seen of national news, they're not uncommon elsewhere in the world.

    Okay - I've presented some evidence, and would love to see some evidence that I'm wrong - that the majority can be expected to be rational - any place, at any time.  I would dearly love to be proven wrong on this topic.

    I'll post a link to this thread in the originating thread, so the folks following that can find this easily if they wish.

    Danno, just tryin' to keep things orderly 'round here.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 1:18 AM In reply to

    • Ego
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    I have a fairly unique view of this, but hear me out:

    Under the ideal system, we'd have the exact same government we have now... except it can't initiate the use of force! This means...

    • it must raise money through fundraisers, advertisements, voluntary charitable donations, etc.
    • it can't enact price controls, wage controls, etc.

    In other words, most of these "impossible" scenarios would play out much the same as they would today. Technically, this is anarchy. However, it's much more palatable for people who (understandably) associate "anarchy" with black-flag-waving leftist thugs.

    Don't allow leftists to play games with definitions! Some of the libertarian-leaning leftists at this forum will try to redefine "left-wing" back to its original defition (Third Estate, limited government, free-markets, laissez-faire reforms, etc.). Fine! We non-leftists can't stop them from using their own personal definitions; they can use whatever labels they want to describe any concept they want.

    However, they have the audacity to then use their personal definition of "left-wing" (remember, the original definition, which is no longer valid) to prove that modern leftists are more libertarian than modern rightists! They will say that libertarianism is "inherently leftist" (again, using the original, no longer valid definition), and use that to insist that we should prefer and side with modern leftists over modern rightists.

    Question their motives.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 2:10 AM In reply to

    • nje5019
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    I recommend you read Chaos Theory by Robert Murphy. It's a very quick read, and it helped me out a lot when I was trying to understand how anarchy could exist without complete chaos.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 2:58 AM In reply to

    • Danno
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Ego:

    I have a fairly unique view of this, but hear me out:

    Under the ideal system, we'd have the exact same government we have now... except it can't initiate the use of force! This means...

    • it must raise money through fundraisers, advertisements, voluntary charitable donations, etc.
    • it can't enact price controls, wage controls, etc.

    Initiating force?  Okay - say they stumble into my hypothetial situation, in which force has already been initiated between two citizens - so they can step in, use force to prevent the further use of force between two citizens, and cite a law that decides which of us is in the wrong. Would this be permissible, and who decides what rules are used to make one side 'right' and the other 'wrong'?

    In other words, most of these "impossible" scenarios would play out much the same as they would today. Technically, this is anarchy. However, it's much more palatable for people who (understandably) associate "anarchy" with black-flag-waving leftist thugs.

    For myself, I understand that labels are awfully convenient, but individuals rarely fit them perfectly.  It was my understanding that an overriding government that can make such decisions was the antithesis of anarchy.  Are we, perhaps, using different definitions for that word?

    nje5019:
    I recommend you read Chaos Theory by Robert Murphy. It's a very quick read, and it helped me out a lot when I was trying to understand how anarchy could exist without complete chaos.

    Thanks for the pointer - I'll check it out.

    Danno - more confused, which usually means I'm about to have another damned learning experience.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 3:04 AM In reply to

    • Nitroadict
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Ego:

    I have a fairly unique view of this, but hear me out:

    Under the ideal system, we'd have the exact same government we have now... except it can't initiate the use of force! This means...

    • it must raise money through fundraisers, advertisements, voluntary charitable donations, etc.
    • it can't enact price controls, wage controls, etc.

    In other words, most of these "impossible" scenarios would play out much the same as they would today. Technically, this is anarchy. However, it's much more palatable for people who (understandably) associate "anarchy" with black-flag-waving leftist thugs.

    A state in which coporatism, neo-feudalism, oligarchy, perpetual warfare, "compassionate" statist conservative socialism, statist leftist socialism, lack of free association, lack of opting out ot he state without being, technically, a criminal, lack of free markets, lack of respect for the NAP, full on present coercion by the state, etc. doesn't sound like something anarchists would really agree to; I hardly see how you can say "exact same government we have now" with a straight face :\

    Also, saying 'understanably' is sounds like saying that the mis-use of said association (the black flag waving leftist thugs) is valid, when the perception itself is actually quite irrational.  Would it not be better to address such misconeptions instead of pandering to irrational beliefs?  If you want to teach someone how to add, you don't rationalize their wrong answer of "5" when "2 + 2 = 4".   

    If you are saying that *some* of what we currently have in terms of lifestyle wouldn't drastically change, I would agree with you to some extent.  Overall however, things would eventually become drastily different; saying "exactly the same" might imply minarchism, which clearly isn't anarchism. 


    In hindsight, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Anarchism for Dummies" might be in order at some point.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 4:37 AM In reply to

    • Jon Irenicus
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    I'm not sure what you expect from people brought up in public schools. They know no better. Anyway, The Market for Liberty, For a New Liberty and Democracy - the God that Failed all present a positive theory of how market anarchism will work.

    -Jon

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 6:25 AM In reply to

    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    You're asking the wrong question...

    It should be has anarchy worked in human society?

     

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 6:59 AM In reply to

    • Ego
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Nitroadict:

    A state in which coporatism, neo-feudalism, oligarchy, perpetual warfare, "compassionate" statist conservative socialism, statist leftist socialism, lack of free association, lack of opting out ot he state without being, technically, a criminal, lack of free markets, lack of respect for the NAP, full on present coercion by the state, etc. doesn't sound like something anarchists would really agree to; I hardly see how you can say "exact same government we have now" with a straight face :\

    Did I not say that the state can't initiate force? How could any of those things happen? It's a way of framing the debate that isn't shocking for people raising a family, afraid of leftist anarchist thugs rioting through their neighborhood.

    Also, saying 'understanably' is sounds like saying that the mis-use of said association (the black flag waving leftist thugs) is valid, when the perception itself is actually quite irrational.  Would it not be better to address such misconeptions instead of pandering to irrational beliefs?  If you want to teach someone how to add, you don't rationalize their wrong answer of "5" when "2 + 2 = 4".   

    Irration beliefs? Words are defined by their current usage; "anarchy" now means "rampant lack of respect for property rights", even in cases where there is still technically a government.  You could use the word "anarchy" if you really want, but why do you want to handicap yourself?


    If you are saying that *some* of what we currently have in terms of lifestyle wouldn't drastically change, I would agree with you to some extent.  Overall however, things would eventually become drastily different; saying "exactly the same" might imply minarchism, which clearly isn't anarchism. 

    Again, it's all about framing the debate in a way that's palatable to the greatest number of people.

     

     

    Don't allow leftists to play games with definitions! Some of the libertarian-leaning leftists at this forum will try to redefine "left-wing" back to its original defition (Third Estate, limited government, free-markets, laissez-faire reforms, etc.). Fine! We non-leftists can't stop them from using their own personal definitions; they can use whatever labels they want to describe any concept they want.

    However, they have the audacity to then use their personal definition of "left-wing" (remember, the original definition, which is no longer valid) to prove that modern leftists are more libertarian than modern rightists! They will say that libertarianism is "inherently leftist" (again, using the original, no longer valid definition), and use that to insist that we should prefer and side with modern leftists over modern rightists.

    Question their motives.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 7:56 AM In reply to

    • Danno
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Nitroadict:

    Ego:

    I have a fairly unique view of this, but hear me out: (...)

    In other words, most of these "impossible" scenarios would play out much the same as they would today. Technically, this is anarchy. However, it's much more palatable for people who (understandably) associate "anarchy" with black-flag-waving leftist thugs.

    Also, saying 'understanably' is sounds like saying that the mis-use of said association (the black flag waving leftist thugs) is valid, when the perception itself is actually quite irrational.  Would it not be better to address such misconeptions instead of pandering to irrational beliefs?  If you want to teach someone how to add, you don't rationalize their wrong answer of "5" when "2 + 2 = 4".   

    No, I'd say that 'understandably' is merely acknowledging that someone's misconception is not irrational - in this case, that it's remarkably easy to run into folks who paint an encircled 'A' for grafitti, and assume that because they claim the label, that they represent the whole of the philosophy.  Addressin' such misconceptions was what I was trying to do here. 

    Correcting mistaken beliefs without denegrating the holder of such beliefs is usually more effective than claiming intellectual superiority to those who had such erroneous ideas.  Honey and vinegar, y'know.

    In hindsight, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Anarchism for Dummies" might be in order at some point.

    That'd be pretty close to what I'm lookin' for.

    Danno

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 8:35 AM In reply to

    • Len Budney
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    All I can say is that I've never seen it.  It may be my neighborhood (Minneapolis, Minnesnowta, USofA), but if I find a discussion with my neighbors on any central topic, and find one in ten espousing rational ideas, I'm having a good day...

    At times I share your dim view. At other times, I ntoice how many times per day people--including stupid people--interact voluntarily without anyone making them do so.

    Spontaneous anarchy broke out at Tiananmen Square.

    At a communter parking lot, I saw people forming a queue for the bus. Without a word, a "front" and "back" were selected for the queue, and folks getting out of their cars voluntarily took the "back" of the line, which was to outward appearance undistinguishable from the "front" of the line. I actually defied the unspoken agreement and got in "front" of the line, and nobody said a word to me--but most everyone in the line glared at me. When the bus stopped, the "second" in line slipped onto the bus ahead of me, closely followed by the "third," and all without a word they pushed me to the back of the line without any coercion or even discussion.

    Or consider even the miracle of the four-way stop sign. People negotiate wordlessly and take turns. If statists' view of humanity was right, a four-way stop sign would be the constant scene of four-car collisions.

    These are the people you expect to act rationally and reasonably?

    Remember, they live in an environment where coercion is a given. It's perfectly understandable that they attempt to steer that coercion in directions agreeable to themselves. It's also immoral (almost) all of the time, but the very existence of government presents them constantly with the false choice of being coerced into A or being coerced into B. In their personal dealings, people grasp private property and non-aggression very well indeed, and most people behave morally most of the time.

    Okay - say they stumble into my hypothetial situation, in which force has already been initiated between two citizens - so they can step in, use force to prevent the further use of force between two citizens...

    No, they can't. The first principle is an absolute recognition that the aggressor is in the wrong, and the defender is in the right. When you find two people fighting, the fight is either consensual or non-consensual. There is either zero or one aggressor. You don't know who is the aggressor, but that doesn't change the fact. If you decide to intervene, any force used against the defender is itself aggression, and you're guilty whether or not you realize it. If the defender then defends himself against you, using lethal force if necessary, he's fully justified despite all your good intentions. If you and the aggressor manage to kill the defender, and then the aggressor tells you that HE was the defender, and you and everyone else in the world believe him, then a crime was committed, whether or not it's ever exposed, and you're a criminal, whether or not you or anyone else ever realizes it. Since humans are fallible, that will sometimes happen.

    So the bottom line is that intervening is a serious matter, and you shouldn't enter into it lightly. If you see a rape in progress, you can be nearly certain that you know who the aggressor is, and you're probably not a criminal if you intervene. But if you intervene in a conflict, and turn out to be wrong, then you bear the consequences of your decision.

    It was my understanding that an overriding government that can make such decisions was the antithesis of anarchy.  Are we, perhaps, using different definitions for that word?

    Probably. Hoppe's definition of government, which I think is the simplest and best, is "an agent claiming territorial monopoly on the use of force and the resolution of conflict (including conflict against itself)." In other words, government claims a monopoly on judging who is wrong, even when government itself is the accused, and then claims a monopoly on force for defense, punishment or war-making, in a specified terrritory.

    Everything government does can be done privately through contracts. The existing government would be legitimate in an anarchic society if everyone under its jurisdiction agreed voluntarily to pay taxes, obey laws, etc. In other words, if the "social contract" were a real contract and not a fiction. Indeed, a slight twist on the Articles of Confederation would make the original United States into a fascinating anarchic experiment: suppose that one could declare citizenship in any state of one's choosing, regardless where one lived or owned property! I.e., if Pennsylvania's laws were too oppressive, I could simply declare myself a Virginian (presumably, subject to consent from Virginia), and would be bound by Virginian law and exempt from Pennsylvanian law, without relocating. I could also declare myself stateless, but in that case I would have no access to defense or other services provided by the various states. Ego is envisioning something between those two possibilities. It's legit anarchy, if nobody can be compelled without consent to be subject to the "voluntary government" (which is, you rightly note, an oxymoron meant to describe something else).

    ...it's remarkably easy to run into folks who paint an encircled 'A' for grafitti, and assume that because they claim the label, that they represent the whole of the philosophy.  Addressin' such misconceptions was what I was trying to do here.

    I applaud your efforts. The graffiti artists might join this forum and embroil themselves in endless controversy, by failing to realize that "anarchy" means something very different around here than they think.

    References given earlier in this thread are excellent. Also, anything published through Mises.org will tend to explain what anarchists here are mostly about. Folks published on LewRockwell.com are not all anarcho-capitalists, but many, perhaps most, are. The Mises.org podcast has some excellent anarcho-capitalist material, and anything by Walter Block or Hans Hoppe is a particular joy to read.

    --Len

     

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 8:40 AM In reply to

    • Paul
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Anonymous Coward:

    You're asking the wrong question...

    It should be has anarchy worked in human society?

    Actually, I think it's "could archy work in human society".

    (And the answer is "no")

    μὴ παραχώρει τοῖς κακος ἀλλ' εὐτολμώτερον ἀντιβάδιζε.

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 12:26 PM In reply to

    • Danno
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    Okay - I've read the _Private Law_ essay by Robert Murphy (thanks much for the pointer!), and on the surface, it seems reasonable.  It also seems like a fine society in which to run an insurance company, since everyone's going to need a remarkable range of policies.  I'm not yet convinced, though.

    Among other things, there are some services that do not lend themselves to competetion.  Local roads, for example - if Citympls Co. owns the local roads, and does its maintainence remarkably stupidly, Countyhenn Co. can't come in, buy land, and set up an alternative road system, looking for subscribers.  Whichever company owned the roads would have a monopoly, and would be the de facto government for those roads - until someone came up with an attractive alternate solution.

    Businesses, writing nonessential clauses into their contracts, and insisting upon such a contract before being willing to do business, would replace the legal system.  Uh-huh.  If Acme grocery store won't sell cabbage to me until I've signed an agreement to not commit rape, I'd expect Emca grocery store to open up, skip the expensive paperwork, hire armed guards to protect themselves, and pass the savings on to the consumer - and sell me some cabbage.

    If I'm under fire by some self-righteous nincompoop who is convinced that they're acting in self-defense when they try to kill the awful tobacco user, who do I call for backup?  If I've contracted with Arbitrators, Inc., and Nincompoop has a contract with Judgements, Ltd. - this could get downright ugly.  If I'm estranged from my birth family, and my children predecease me in the firefight, who is there to object?  According to Len, my neighbors would have plenty of reason to not get involved, unless we had a mutual defense agreement - so people without a legal clan of heirs would do well to join in such agreements, probably based upon physical location.

    If my block's mutual-defense society had a dispute with the MDS across the street, and it devolved into a shootin' war, it would behoove both sides to enlist allies - make agreements with adjoining MDSs.  Pretty soon, the whole thing is being run by the power bloc who can field the most force.  An intriguing study of how that has worked in the past can be found in the story of the Cowboys vs. Wyatt Earp - a good, fictionalized version that covers the facts pretty well can be found in _Tombstone_, a pretty good movie.  There, the rival gangs were the cowboys and the U.S. Marshalls - one had "legal" standing and better backup, but they were, to all intents and purposes, rival gangs.

    It still looks like it'd be lovely, but for the loopholes - and I'm a loophole kinda guy.  While I'm usually unwilling to initiate force, I'm probably overwilling to escallate a physical dispute pretty steeply - shootin' the kid who I catch syphoning my gas tank just seems reasonable to me, though it's likely to seem unreasonable to his clan.  Based upon this, I'm most likely to contract with the arbitration company that has the reputation for permitting the most overkill in response to petty theft.  A few years into this, and I'll be contemplatin' pre-emptive strikes against the remains of his clan, just to get some sleep at night - his MDS is gonna have my name on their "better dead"  list.

    Nope - as peaceful as most are, there have always been those who would cheerfully loot and assault others.  If enough of them band together to become a serious problem, the peacable folk would have to band together to face that problem, and we're back to having a government.  Probably a better government than we have now, but a government nonetheless.

    Len - I'll agree with you - Hoppe's definition looks clear, accurate, and succinct to me.  But unless there's some sort of monopoly on  non-contract dispute resolution, there's gonna be bloodshed - and if there is one, it's called a government - even if it's a publicly-traded corporation.

    It's entirely likely that there have been solutions to the noncontractural squabbles that would arise from theft and agression - but until I see a convincing one, I'm gonna have to remain skeptical.

    Danno, thinkin' it would have been lovely....

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  • Fri, May 9 2008 12:43 PM In reply to

    • Len Budney
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    Re: Could anarchy work in human society?

    It's entirely likely that there have been solutions to the noncontractural squabbles that would arise from theft and agression - but until I see a convincing one, I'm gonna have to remain skeptical.

    Go ahead: as long as you continue enquiring reasonably, as you're doing here, your skepticism is healthy.

    Most of your objections seem to boil down to: what happens when two defense agencies get into a shooting war? That's addressed in the literature, though I don't have pointers at the tip of my fingers. To sum up the general answer: your defense agency exists to make money; going to war over your petty squabbles is at least as bad for business as failing to provide the protection you paid for. You agency and the anti-smoking-zealot's agency will give you the choice of entering arbitration (or some other rough equivalent of "going to court"), or else have your defense contracts terminated. They will not spend the millions a shooting war would cost in order to defend your stinkin' stogie.

    Your concern about roads amounts to a "natural monopoly" argument. Having socialized roads doesn't solve that problem: it simply makes government an honest-to-goodness, enforced-with-guns monopolist--with the resulting high prices, poor quality, graft and corruption. At worst, you're talking about trading a government monopolist for a bunch of small local "monopolies" that can hardly be worse.

    But they're not really monopolies at all. Suppose I own a parking lot, and carve out a square in the center, put a house on it and sell the house to you, you could call me a "local monopolist": you can't leave your home without passing through my property. This is the extreme case of what you're describing, since the road owner might not have you completely surrounded. You might be able to cut through the woods and escape the locally-owned roads entirely.

    The first problem with this "monopoly" is the question how it arose: did you buy the house without stipulating that I'd let you at least enter and leave it? That was pretty stupid. What would you pay for a home on those terms? Five dollars? Similarly, the owner of a residential road would grant certain guarantees, in the form of rights-of-way, to home owners on his street--because if he didn't, the property value would plummet. I have no idea what those guarantees would look like exactly, but after the market explores the issue a while, they'll settle down to a few standard forms quickly. For example, you might always be allowed to enter and leave your property on foot, but must pay to use a motor vehicle. Or you might be allowed to ride with neighbors, taxis that have contractual arrangements, etc., even if you don't pay your fees. There are many possibilities. But a property in which I can imprison you at whim, if it existed at all, would be cheap enough a hobo could afford it.

    The next problem is that it isn't a "monopoly" if equally serviceable goods are availabe from another source. You can escape the "local monopoly" by moving to another town. That's a pain, and might be costly, but it remains an option. We must be careful not to confuse the cost of a choice with not having a choice; that's how leftists conclude that capitalists "coerce" their employees: after all, unemployment is costly, and changing jobs is a pain.

    In a nutshell, you're right that road providers can't compete by laying three roads to your door. But that doesn't mean they can't compete.

    --Len

     

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