The 'Time-Dollar' Currency: Your Thoughts?

I was looking up the liberty dollar due to reading an adjacent thread (Practical Agorism), and came across this wikipedia page (I vaugley remember seeing a reddit headline for an article on the time-dollar before, but I sadly did not bookmark it...):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-based_currency

In economics, a time-based currency is an alternative currency where the unit of exchange is the person-hour.

Time-based currencies value everyone’s contributions equally. One hour equals one service credit. In these systems, one person volunteers to work for an hour for another person; thus, they are credited with one hour, which they can redeem for an hour of service from another volunteer.


I would've posted this in Practical Agorism, but felt it would be better as a seperate thread.  What are your thoughts on this "time-dollar"?

This is terrible in my opinion. It sounds like something a labour theory of value proponent would use. It completely ignores productivity and would destroy the entire labour market. How do we differentiate betweem the economic value derived from a guy cleaning a toilet, and somebody manufacturing high-tech computer chips? Using this idea the two would be the same.

Time is not a fungible commodity.

It's absurd.  It's the labor theory of value "money".

Swing & a miss for me, lol.  Was interesting to read, nonetheless.

Liberty dollars are interesting.  I've long been fascinated by the development of an alternative commodity-based money.  Practically, though, the government would never tolerate it, so strategically it would be necessary to have a reformist in power to avoid the crackdown.  However, once a reformist is in power it would be much easier (and more effective, given that dollars are used in ~33 countries) to just re-establish the dollars link to gold.  However, it would certainly be prudent to reestablish a free-market in money and encourage competing currencies.  Even though they would be inferior to a gold-based dollar, they would be valuable in preventing the gold-based dollar from going back to being a fiat currency.

I lived near Ithaca, where Ithaca-Hours are widely accepted. But I didn't participate in their system, so what I'm about to say could be all wrong...

AFAICT the Ithacans refute the labor theory of value in practice. A dentist might take Ithaca Hours, but he takes more than the amount of time it takes to clean your teeth. If I have that right, it could actually be a decent currency.

--Len

Len Budney:

I lived near Ithaca, where Ithaca-Hours are widely accepted. But I didn't participate in their system, so what I'm about to say could be all wrong...

AFAICT the Ithacans refute the labor theory of value in practice. A dentist might take Ithaca Hours, but he takes more than the amount of time it takes to clean your teeth. If I have that right, it could actually be a decent currency.

--Len

That doesn't change anything, really; if a dentist charges 10 hours for 1 hour of work, another dentist would have to perform 10 hours of dental work on him in order to pay him back.

Ego:

Len Budney:

I lived near Ithaca, where Ithaca-Hours are widely accepted. But I didn't participate in their system, so what I'm about to say could be all wrong...

AFAICT the Ithacans refute the labor theory of value in practice. A dentist might take Ithaca Hours, but he takes more than the amount of time it takes to clean your teeth. If I have that right, it could actually be a decent currency.

 

That doesn't change anything, really; if a dentist charges 10 hours for 1 hour of work, another dentist would have to perform 10 hours of dental work on him in order to pay him back.

Again, not if I have it straight. The other dentist would also get 10 hours (or some similar amount) for 1 hour of (dental) work. So he could trade even for dental work, or do ten hours of yard work for an hour of dental work.

--Len

If one Ithaca Hour is not equal to another Ithaca Hour, the whole thing is pretty meaningless.

Ego:

If one Ithaca Hour is not equal to another Ithaca Hour, the whole thing is pretty meaningless.

With any medium of exchange, the numbers are meaningless. Prices are ratios of valuations.

--Len.

I agree completely; that's why the label of "time-dollar" doesn't apply if "time" isn't the actual source of value.

Ego:

I agree completely; that's why the label of "time-dollar" doesn't apply if "time" isn't the actual source of value.

Sure. But remember it was invented by socialists. In practice (disclaimer again: if I have it right), however, the users proved the socialists wrong by entering into voluntary contracts and setting prices which violated the "everyone's hour is the same" rule.

--Len

Len Budney:

Ego:

I agree completely; that's why the label of "time-dollar" doesn't apply if "time" isn't the actual source of value.

Sure. But remember it was invented by socialists. In practice (disclaimer again: if I have it right), however, the users proved the socialists wrong by entering into voluntary contracts and setting prices which violated the "everyone's hour is the same" rule.

--Len

If that's how "time-hours" can operate, that might be why I originally thought it was an interesting, as voluntary contracts would be copasetic with Agora activity, methinks.  I also think this would more effective at a local and/or community level.

This came up on another forum where one of the folks has a thing for expiring currency as a method of dealing with wealth accumulation (which is bad for some reason).

So I read the link and immediately dismissed it because everyone's time isn't equal but also wondered how the currency is created in the first place?

Do you work for an hour to get a buck or do you just write a promissory note to someone who has worked for you stating that you will work for them for an hour some time in the future and this becomes currency?

Seems like the people who issue this currency could get a whole bunch of free labor and not have to work at all to back the notes they are printing just like fractional reserve banks produce money out of thin air in the current system.

Or I guess they could be individualized so they are the equivalent to a coupon for a specific service but then you would run into the double coincidence of wants problem.

Probably should read the OP's link, maybe it answers this...

Nitroadict:

If that's how "time-hours" can operate, that might be why I originally thought it was an interesting, as voluntary contracts would be copasetic with Agora activity, methinks.  I also think this would more effective at a local and/or community level.

Why not just trade your labor for a real commodity instead of a piece of paper with questionable backing?

Doesn't Krugman report a system similar to this? He records its failure as a market failure. IIRC, Callahan mentions it in Economics for Real People. I think the participants exchanged baby sitting time or something to that effect. Krugman posited the market had failed in this system for some reason, but Callahan demonstrated that it was in fact a case of the market not being properly operational.

-Jon

Len Budney:

A dentist might take Ithaca Hours, but he takes more than the amount of time it takes to clean your teeth.

He is just accounting for all the college years he spent learning how to clean those teeth. ;P

Seriously, I would hate cleaning sewers for Ithacas while someone is a dog walker. The problem is that you don't even want to spend more time down there than necessary, so you can't even cheat to get more Ithacas. :P