1. The internet. (The government & Tim Berners-Lee.)2. Penicillin. “Florey believed it would be inappropriate to patent penicillin, but learned his lesson when some of his American collaborators did just that… Florey took no profit for himself.”— http://time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,33700,00.html3. The computer - “This came from pure scientific thought, and not at all from an economic need for computing. Business and profit-making played no part in it.”— http://turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/machine.html4. AC power & modern electricity. (Tesla)“Money does not represent such a value as men have placed upon it. All my money has been invested into experiments with which I have made new discoveries enabling mankind to have a little easier life.”— http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla“Yet Tesla died destitute.”—http://inventors.about.com/od/tstartinventions/a/Nikola_Tesla.htm5. Phone. “Meucci was recognized as the first inventor of the telephone by the US House.” “[He] was unable to raise sufficient funds to pay for the patent application… In 1861 his cottage was auctioned.”—http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Meucci6. Lightbulb. “Göbel [invented] the first practical bulb… in 1854, a quarter of a century before Edison’s patent.”—http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_G%C3%B6belYes he died pennyless too.7. Radio. “Tesla is now credited with inventing modern radio as well; since the Supreme Court overturned Marconi’s patent in 1943 in favor of Tesla’s earlier patents.”—http://inventors.about.com/od/tstartinventions/a/Nikola_Tesla.htm8. Almost everything else - through state funding of science, medicine, & university research.The point? While we all love for-profit economics, let’s not exaggerate their role either. At best they tend to succeed after government acceleration of new technologies.from http://newsrogue.com/list-the-worlds-best-inventions-werent-made-for-profit/Guys, no one is denying that profit improves products, we're just asking for a little honesty. Yes profit motive leads to cheaper & better products... but creativity, altruism, & government had a big role too.Ford didn't invent the car, he invented the cheap car. The Wright brothers didn't invent the first airplane, they invented the first good airplane. (the "three axis-control" method.)In other words, liberals don't "hate markets" or "worship Marx" - we love our laptops & our porn - but please don't exaggerate, & please don't simplify reality.
You are clearly out of your element here. If you are implying that inventions/innovations aren't procuced by individuals/groups operating out of self-interest, then you need to re-examine your beliefs.
...And nobody has ever taught you how to live out on the street, But now you're gonna have to get used to it...
Alright but who invented sliced bread?
Minarchism failed because it is socialism || A challenge to minarchists || Private roads and cities || A two-stage strategy for freedom
Why does any of this matter?
You surely don't want to take profits from anyone who does enjoy them, right?
Don't allow leftists to play games with definitions! Some of the libertarian-leaning leftists at this forum will try to redefine "left-wing" back to its original defition (Third Estate, limited government, free-markets, laissez-faire reforms, etc.). Fine! We non-leftists can't stop them from using their own personal definitions; they can use whatever labels they want to describe any concept they want.However, they have the audacity to then use their personal definition of "left-wing" (remember, the original definition, which is no longer valid) to prove that modern leftists are more libertarian than modern rightists! They will say that libertarianism is "inherently leftist" (again, using the original, no longer valid definition), and use that to insist that we should prefer and side with modern leftists over modern rightists.
Question their motives.
Question: who cares? What was the point of this thread?
-Jon
I cannot be caged. I cannot be controlled. Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools.
Irenicus' Diaries.
Jon Irenicus: Question: who cares? What was the point of this thread? -Jon
Exactly. In addition, even if something is invented by someone who cares more about fame and attention than money, profit-seekers always improve upon it.
Jon Irenicus:Question: who cares?
Lol, I should have asked myself this before I took the time to read through the whole thing at post a comment.
mr_anonymous: "If you are implying that inventions/innovations aren't procuced by individuals/groups operating out of self-interest, then you need to re-examine your beliefs. "
It wasn't me who implied that, it was the inventors themselves:
“This came from pure scientific thought, and not at all from an economic need for computing. Business and profit-making played no part in it.”— http://turing.org.uk/turing/scrapbook/machine.html
“Florey believed it would be inappropriate to patent penicillin, but learned his lesson when some of his American collaborators did just that… Florey took no profit for himself.”— http://time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,33700,00.html
Ego: "You surely don't want to take profits from anyone who does enjoy them, right?"
Obviously no one said that. Hint: 99% of debating conservatives is explaining what you didn't say. It's just how polite people slander other's with offensive stereotypes & myths... "Liberals believe [random evil.]" ... "No we don't." Repeat.
The point of this thread is obvious, to help you guys understand that both government & altruism have played a big part in technology - to help you understand that real politics is more complex than "evil liberals vs business." We're not against business - you never hear anyone complaining about the greed of Steve Jobs & Apple corporation.
In other words, I'm trying to debunk libertarian slander, stereotypes, & myths. No one is denying that greed can be good, but the over-simplification by libertarians isn't being fair to the real complexities of the world.
Are you going to answer my question?
Ego: "You said that you don't want to take profits from individuals who do enjoy them. Really? You don't want to tax? Yes, you do. You don't have to explicitly say, 'I want to tax' before others are allowed to state the obvious."
First off, libertarians support taxes & so did the founding fathers. The real debate is *how* to tax & I didn't state my tax beliefs, so don't assume. We're not practicing some ideal government, we're paying for the wars of conservatives.
Frankly if you want to blame someone for high taxes *blame yourselves* because it's you guys who almost always vote republican:
"the real news is 2004. The libertarian vote for Bush dropped from 72 to 59 percent" (72% in 2000) -- http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6735
Here's a hint: we have no choice but to raise taxes for the spending *you guys* voted for. Again! It never ends. And if your party voted for Bush twice, you're conservatives.
So in other words, you came here to attack a strawman. Well, I'll let any conservatives here know when I see one.
First off, libertarians support taxes
No, we don't. We're not LP hacks.
Edward-M: Ego: "You said that you don't want to take profits from individuals who do enjoy them. Really? You don't want to tax? Yes, you do. You don't have to explicitly say, 'I want to tax' before others are allowed to state the obvious." First off, libertarians support taxes & so did the founding fathers. The real debate is *how* to tax & I didn't state my tax beliefs, so don't assume. We're not practicing some ideal government, we're paying for the wars of conservatives. Frankly if you want to blame someone for high taxes *blame yourselves* because it's you guys who almost always vote republican: "the real news is 2004. The libertarian vote for Bush dropped from 72 to 59 percent" (72% in 2000) -- http://cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6735 Here's a hint: we have no choice but to raise taxes for the spending *you guys* voted for. Again! It never ends. And if your party voted for Bush twice, you're conservatives.
I'm not going to allow you to squirm out of this one. Earlier you said that you do not want to take any profits, and you lectured me about assuming things about you that you didn't explicitly say. When confronted about your lie, you said that libertarians and the founding fathers want to take profits, too! How ridiculous can you guys be?
Stop accusing us of being Republicans and/or fake libertarians. We're not. Aside from the fact that I've never voted before, I've never encountered anyone here who is in favor of taxation.
The main point is: Why did you lie and state you didn't want to take profits? Did you think anyone would believe you?
"When confronted about your lie, you said that libertarians and the founding fathers want to take profits, too! How ridiculous can you guys be?"
Try learning before typing!
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties