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How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

Latest post Thu, May 22 2008 12:03 PM by Spideynw. 250 replies.
  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 6:21 PM

    How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

     In applied ethics there is a dilemma known as The Trolley Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem). It runs like this:

    A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track by a mad philosopher. Fortunately, you can flip a switch which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?

    I would suggest revising the scenario so that the people have not been tied to the tracks by a mad philosopher, but just happen to be on it. Otherwise we might be able to resolve the problem by ultimately blaming the philosopher.

    The problem becomes interesting when we compare it to other scenarios. For instance, from the wikipedia source:

    As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

    The interesting thing is that many people's intuitions about the first trolley case are that it is OK to pull the switch, saving the five people, but resulting in the death of the single person. However, many people's intuitive response to the fat man revised version of the scenario is not to push the fat man. The dilemma comes in explaining the difference, identifying the relavent moral distinctions in the scenarios.

    A third scenario is this:

    A brilliant transplant surgeon has five patients, each in need of a different organ, each of whom will die without that organ. Unfortunately, there are no organs available to perform any of these five transplant operations. A healthy young traveler, just passing through the city the doctor works in, comes in for a routine checkup. In the course of doing the checkup, the doctor discovers that his organs are compatible with all five of his dying patients. Suppose further that if the young man were to disappear, no one would suspect the doctor.

    Again, the popular intuition is that it would be wrong to take the organs of the unsuspecting traveller. But why? Each of these cases seem to involve saving five lives at the expense of one, but the intution seems to favour saving the five at the expense of one in the original trolley problem, but not in the later scenarios.

    One popular suggestion is that our intutions in these cases lend support to the doctrine of double effect. The doctrine of double effect says that a foreseen harmful effect of an action is permissable under the following conditions:

  • the nature of the act is itself good, or at least morally neutral;
  • the intention is for the good effect and not the bad;
  • the good effect outweighs the bad effect in a situation sufficiently grave to merit the risk of yielding the bad effect (e.g., risking a patient's death to stop intolerable pain);
  • the good effect (relieving pain) does not go through the bad effect (e.g., death).
  • So, for instance, one significant difference between the original trolley example and the fat man trolley example is that in the original trolley example, the death of the single person is a foreseen but unintended effect of saving the five people; whilst pushing the fat man is not unintended, though it is foreseen. Likewise, the five people in the first example are not saved by killing the single one - killing the single person is not a means to saving them, or part of our plan to do so.

    Likewise, killing the unsuspecting traveler to harvest his organs for five other people is intended, and part of the plan. Saving the five people tied to the tracks by diverting the trolley onto the track with one person tied to it will result in the death of the one, but that death, though foreseen, was unintended, and the one was not killed as a means to save the five. Meanwhile, in the organ havesting scenario the single traveller's death is intended, and is a means for saving the five.

    The doctrine of double effect, then, may answer the question of why, intuitively, pulling the switch is OK in the first trolley case, but pushing the fat man or butchering the traveller is not.

    The trouble is that libertarians, like Rothbard, oppose the doctrine of double effect. In the Libertarian Forum (June-July, '84) Rothbard wrote,

    a Randian "mocking smile" rather than a sigh of regret.

    The innocent bystander is the case most relevant to the question of war and the State. Except that we must postulate a mass of innocent bystanders or shields instead of just one. Ponder this: A is being threatened by B, a sniper, hiding in a crowd of hundreds of innocent people. For various reasons he can't simply leave and he also can't warn the crowd. A must either be shot or else he throws a bomb into the crowd, killing hundreds of bystanders along with the sniper. Is A's action, is mass slaughter of innocents, justified because A's life is at stake? It is hard to believe that any civilized person, much less any libertarian, would justify such an action-not simply because it would be profoundly immoral, but because it commits what for libertarians is the ultimate crime: mass murder. In this case, the Lone Ranger would be happy to pop A before he commits mass-murder, and even do it with 

    An adherent of the doctrine of double effect may not disagree with Rothbard's conclussion here, because the bad effect of throwing the bomb (killing tens of people in the crowd) is not proportionate to the good effect (A saving his own life). However, one can revise the scenario such that B has an even bigger bomb that would kill far more people in the crowd if he threw it at A. In this case, the doctrine of double effect seems to justify A throwing his bomb at B. A does not intend to kill anybody in the crowd: His intention is to kill B, not the bystanders. Killing a few to save many might make the bad effect proportionate to the good, too. And A would not be killing the crowd members as a means to kill B, the good effect of his action is not accomplished by killing the crowd members.

    However, this seems to violate rights. If, then, we may never violate rights, then how would a libertarian solve the trolley problem?

     

     

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 6:32 PM In reply to

    • Twirlcan
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

     

    I would solve the Trolley Problem by installing air brakes and a brake catch on the tracks since PLC's would monitor the track cricuits and switches and send the information down an RS485 cable to a FEP providing information to a real time server.

    The application I would use would activate the brake catch when there is a "permanent occupancy" reading for a certain period of time and send the trolley into BIE (brakes in emergency).  This would activate before the switch was thrown.  Then a track crew would go on site to see what the problem is and release the people tied to the tracks while a dispatcher tried to re-route trolly traffic around the area.

    I bet you never expected someone who designes systems like this to answer this question, huh?

     

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 6:42 PM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

     Lol! OK, solution by evasion!

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 6:49 PM In reply to

    • Jon Irenicus
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    I fail to see how harvesting the organs is even intuitively moral. It is outright violation of one's bodily integrity. Only the most depraved of minds would find this moral in any sense. Such a proposition would sit uneasily with me even before I became a libertarian.

    Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools.

    Librarian: "I will not stand for this!!" Mandy: "There's an empty chair right there."

    Irenicus' Diaries.

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 6:58 PM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

     Harvesting (unconsenting) people's organs is intuitively immoral. That is the point: how do we reconcile that intuition with the intuitive support for pulling the switch in the original trolley example? And what would a libertarian, sworn not to violate rights, do in the first trolley example?

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 7:22 PM In reply to

    • Jon Irenicus
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Ah, I misread the OP on that matter. I'll take a shot at answering this tomorrow.

    Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools.

    Librarian: "I will not stand for this!!" Mandy: "There's an empty chair right there."

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 8:36 PM In reply to

    • JCFolsom
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Richard A Garner:
    The innocent bystander is the case most relevant to the question of war and the State. Except that we must postulate a mass of innocent bystanders or shields instead of just one. Ponder this: A is being threatened by B, a sniper, hiding in a crowd of hundreds of innocent people. For various reasons he can't simply leave and he also can't warn the crowd. A must either be shot or else he throws a bomb into the crowd, killing hundreds of bystanders along with the sniper. Is A's action, is mass slaughter of innocents, justified because A's life is at stake? It is hard to believe that any civilized person, much less any libertarian, would justify such an action-not simply because it would be profoundly immoral, but because it commits what for libertarians is the ultimate crime: mass murder.

    Well, now, I would tend to disagree with Rothbard on this to some degree. I consider A's decision to toss the bomb morally neutral. Certainly, any bystander should do what was necessary to stop A, yet if A went through with his action, I do not think we would be justified in going after him as a criminal afterwards. The crime, in this case, was solely the sniper's who left A with only the choice between his own death and that of many others. What I see this as really being is an aggressor using a mass of innocents as human shields. Should A just lay down and die because B was willing to use such a ruthless tactic? I don't think so.

     

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  • Sat, Apr 19 2008 8:47 PM In reply to

    • Ego
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    I haven't though about the trolley problem, but I have thought about human shields, which seems slightly similar.

    Let's say a leftist is firing shots into a crowd while holding an innocent person as a shield. It's not your fault if you inadvertently kill or injure the human shield while trying to stop the leftist; it's the leftist's fault and should be added to his list of murders.

    Don't allow leftists to play games with definitions! Some of the libertarian-leaning leftists at this forum will try to redefine "left-wing" back to its original defition (Third Estate, limited government, free-markets, laissez-faire reforms, etc.). Fine! We non-leftists can't stop them from using their own personal definitions; they can use whatever labels they want to describe any concept they want.

    However, they have the audacity to then use their personal definition of "left-wing" (remember, the original definition, which is no longer valid) to prove that modern leftists are more libertarian than modern rightists! They will say that libertarianism is "inherently leftist" (again, using the original, no longer valid definition), and use that to insist that we should prefer and side with modern leftists over modern rightists.

    Question their motives.

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 12:45 AM In reply to

    • maxpot46
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Richard A Garner:
    The interesting thing is that many people's intuitions about the first trolley case are that it is OK to pull the switch, saving the five people, but resulting in the death of the single person. However, many people's intuitive response to the fat man revised version of the scenario is not to push the fat man. The dilemma comes in explaining the difference, identifying the relavent moral distinctions in the scenarios.

    Seems pretty simple to me as the scenarios are not similar at all.  In scenario one, I did nothing to coerce anyone -- some other villian put 6 lives in danger (or 6 idiots put their own lives in danger), and I am simply trying to save as many as possible.  In all the other scenarios, my choice is between coercion and non-coercion.  I'm relieved that people understand intuitively that the means justify the ends and that coercion is wrong, even to allegedly save a bunch of innocents (allegedly because these contrived scenarios always involve certainty about the outcomes, when of course in real life there is no such certainty).

     

    "He that struggles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." Edmund Burke

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 1:10 AM In reply to

    • Ego
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Wow, in skimming over the original post, I completely misread the trolley question.

    I tend to agree with maxpot, but what if the circumstances were slightly different?

    Let's say that two cars broke down, one on each track. The first car has only the driver, but the second car has the driver and four passengers. Of course, none of the car doors are working. What do you do?

    Don't allow leftists to play games with definitions! Some of the libertarian-leaning leftists at this forum will try to redefine "left-wing" back to its original defition (Third Estate, limited government, free-markets, laissez-faire reforms, etc.). Fine! We non-leftists can't stop them from using their own personal definitions; they can use whatever labels they want to describe any concept they want.

    However, they have the audacity to then use their personal definition of "left-wing" (remember, the original definition, which is no longer valid) to prove that modern leftists are more libertarian than modern rightists! They will say that libertarianism is "inherently leftist" (again, using the original, no longer valid definition), and use that to insist that we should prefer and side with modern leftists over modern rightists.

    Question their motives.

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 6:47 AM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    JCFolsom:
    Well, now, I would tend to disagree with Rothbard on this to some degree. I consider A's decision to toss the bomb morally neutral. Certainly, any bystander should do what was necessary to stop A, yet if A went through with his action, I do not think we would be justified in going after him as a criminal afterwards. The crime, in this case, was solely the sniper's who left A with only the choice between his own death and that of many others. What I see this as really being is an aggressor using a mass of innocents as human shields. Should A just lay down and die because B was willing to use such a ruthless tactic? I don't think so.

     

     OK, I think many would agree with you. But what impact does this have for rights theory. If killing (innocent) people is a violation of rights, and violations of rights are immoral, and A's throwing his bomb at B will kill innocent people, then It would appear that throwing the bomb would be immoral. Your argument suggests that this is not the case, though, which would make one of the premises false.

    I suggest that perhaps the argument could be modified so that intended rights violations are wrong, but unintended, though foreseen ones, are not. This would square rights with the doctrine of double effect.

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 6:48 AM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Ego:

    I haven't though about the trolley problem, but I have thought about human shields, which seems slightly similar.

    Let's say a leftist is firing shots into a crowd while holding an innocent person as a shield. It's not your fault if you inadvertently kill or injure the human shield while trying to stop the leftist; it's the leftist's fault and should be added to his list of murders.

     

     Yes, I suppose that blaming the leftist is a solution to that scenario, but not for the trolley case.

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 7:32 AM In reply to

    • Jon Irenicus
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Richard, that would strike me as an acceptable resolution of the issue. My original approach would've been to push back culpability towards the individual who necessitated the potentially immoral action in the first place, given that they are the ones who forced the individual into taking the actions they took.

    Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools.

    Librarian: "I will not stand for this!!" Mandy: "There's an empty chair right there."

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 3:41 PM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    One of the classic discussions of this issue can be found in chapters 6 and 7 in Judith Thomson's book, Rights, Restitution, & Risk.  If you have access to the book through a library or something, I'd recommend checking it out.  You might also check out Peter Unger's essay, "Living High and Letting Die," which discusses the problem from a really interesting utilitarian perspective

     

    http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 7:41 PM In reply to

    • justinx0r
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    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Doing nothing is the way to solve the "problem".  If a trolley is flying towards five people tied on a track and you have to kill someone in order to save them it is still morally wrong.  That would be like saying a hungry man should be allowed to come into your house and steal your food just because of the fact that he is hungry.

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 9:37 PM In reply to

    Re: How might libertarians solve the Trolley Problem?

    Thing is, most people don't feel that way, and I think I agree with them.

    http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 9:46 PM In reply to