pazlenchantinrocks:I am one of "those" guys. That is I think that the World Trade Center towers were brought down by controlled demolition. I base much of my thoughts on the matter on the work of Dr. Steven E. Jones. I find that he makes a very strong case for explosives being planted in WTC 1, 2, and 7. I would most certainly be open to reading more attempted refutations of his work. I would change my postition on the matter if such a refutation successfully refuted his thesis and presented a plausable explanation as to why the towers fell without explosives.
I am no expert, nor have I even done anyresearch on the use of explosive on WTC 1,2 etc. But I will tell you this. I slept in on the morning of September 11, 2001, and was going to skip my classes when I walked into my living room and my roomate told me that on the news they were talking about someone just haveing flown a plane into one of the WTC Towers. So we sat there for the rest of the day, unmoving and watched every second as the entire event unfolded. The point of my story is this, we hapened to have TiVo which was fairly new at the time. And as soon as the first tower colapsed we watched exactly what happened over, and over in Slo-Mo and we did the same when the second tower fell. And I can tell you for a fact that the buildings did NOT come down like most buildings that are imloded and fall in on themselves. In both buildings the sections above the area where the planes hit looked like they came down onto the floor below them, which fell down to the next floor, etc. until the buidings had entirely colapsed. So unless the explosives had been placed just below the area where each plane was supposed to impact, and somehow managed to not be detonated by the impact or the extreme heat of the burning jet fuel, and the pilots were able to pinpoint their impacts with perfect precision then I would say that any explosive theory is just "kooky" conspiracy. My guess is that the thousands gallons of jet fuel burned long enough to weaken the few sections of the building that were remaining after the jets impacted the building, and that when the floors finally colapsed the weight and momentum from them falling caused a chain reaction that each floor was too weak to withstand as they came down on each other and there must have been an additive effect as the weight of each floor added to the stack as they came down. Anyway, usually I wouldn't even post on something like this because I think it could make the entire network look bad just to be discussion conspiracy theories.
Sorry forgot one last thing, the easiest way to begin an attempt to prove, or disprove this proposition would be to build a model based on the plans of the buildings and test the way that I described the buildings coming down, that is the floors colapsing from the top vs. how the buildings would have fallen if they were imploded. Not to go back and forth name calling, and positing theories of the reasons why, or who caused the attacks. They could test the model the same way that they test the model buildings to see if they can stand up to strong winds, or waves, etc. except this case would be building colapses.
robdailey: Sorry forgot one last thing, the easiest way to begin an attempt to prove, or disprove this proposition would be to build a model based on the plans of the buildings and test the way that I described the buildings coming down, that is the floors colapsing from the top vs. how the buildings would have fallen if they were imploded. Not to go back and forth name calling, and positing theories of the reasons why, or who caused the attacks. They could test the model the same way that they test the model buildings to see if they can stand up to strong winds, or waves, etc. except this case would be building colapses.
These sorts of things have been done officially, and unofficially. The body of research done for and against the "official story" is massive.
A decent site to check out is http://stj911.org/
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
I have read the Popular Mechanics book on the 9/11 Conspiracy crap. They basically use physics, science and their knoweldge of architecture to show how every claim the conspiracy theory nuts make is totaly unfounded. I highly reccommend picking it up. Popular Mechanics has nothing to do with the government and is a private magazine.
Aristotle100: I have read the Popular Mechanics book on the 9/11 Conspiracy crap. They basically use physics, science and their knoweldge of architecture to show how every claim the conspiracy theory nuts make is totaly unfounded. I highly reccommend picking it up. Popular Mechanics has nothing to do with the government and is a private magazine.
When you're done reading the 9/11 Piece by Popular Mechanics, be sure to read this response,
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/
I found the PM article tended to attack the untrained theorists, not the academic and professional experts.
Actually, John McCain wrote the foreword to the book.
Anyway, I used to be big on the whole conspiracy thing, but now I've moderated my views, for two reasons.
1- Realizing that no one can consciously do evil. Whenever someone acts, it is with the motive of bettering their situation. Thus, they will always justify it as "the right thing to do".
2- Triage. What is more important - exposing government sponsored terrorism? Or bringing to light the blatant robberies and murders that go on every day in the name of the state. For example, 3000 people died on 9/11. But 40000 people die per year on government roads. Probably hundreds of thousands die or have their lives ruined because of the horribly tragic "War on drugs". Government wars have killed more people than everything else combined.
Again, what is more important? Solving the murder of 3000 people, or preventing the murders of possibly millions of innocent people? I will go with the latter every time.
That being said, I do not believe the governments explanation of WTC 7; However, I do not claim to know exactly what happened either. For me, it is just a mystery. Furthermore, I think the 9/11 Truth Movement is ripe for converting to anarchism.
LibertarianAnarchy.com - Government is immoral, unnecessary, and doesn't work!
I figured it was a matter of time before someone mentioned the John McCain forward, however that doesnt prove anything. McCain didnt write the book he simply did a forward. I agree that we may not know all the facts, however I believe that the act was carried out by Muslim terrorists.
Aristotle100:Popular Mechanics has nothing to do with the government and is a private magazine.
This reminds me of a story i read when i was young - its meaning escaped me until at least 20 or more years after having read it. The story goes like this: some Russian scientists visiting the west were asked about how good it must be to be away from soviet propaganda for a while, implying that the west was free of such things. They laughed and answered in effect: "You know, when we hear soviet progaganda everybody recognizes it as such - it's a joke." And they continued, "But here in the west, it is quite different: very few recognize the state propaganda as such when they hear it - they think their popular media is free and uncontrolled by their state."
When i read this as a kid, i did not at all fathom what they were trying to say. It made no sense to me. I assumed they were confused. Only now, as an anarchist, and having, for example, watched FOX and the other popular media trying successfully to sideline Ron Paul's campaign has it become so painfully obvious the truth of what those Russians they were driving at. The best propaganda is that which is dispensed by ostensibly unbiased sources. The west, outside of the internet, has the absolute best propaganda.
What i think is funny is to listen to the very first reactions of the news media to the collapse of the 9/11 buildings - before they were told to shut TFU. "... and everyone who knows anything about these things knows that one must get at the underinfrastructure to bring a building down in this manner..." (paraphrased)
To me it is mind-blowing just how powerful establishment news is at overriding people's own common sense. Mind blowing.
Sage:Actually, John McCain wrote the foreword to the book.
LMAO! But i'm sure it was in his capacity as an avid follower of science and technology rather than his connection with the state that he would be doing this. Everyone knows what a keen intellect McCain is. LOL!
Sage:1- Realizing that no one can consciously do evil.
You think? I think this is a very dubious statement. I think people consciously delude themselves that their ends justify their means. They still know what they do is evil.
Sage:2- Triage. What is more important - exposing government sponsored terrorism? Or bringing to light the blatant robberies and murders that go on every day in the name of the state.
We can't know every truth there is to know, but i think if it is true that the power elite of this country staged a terrorist attack with jets flying into WTC1 and 2, then demolished 1,2 and 7 and convinced half the nation it was the work of foreign terrorists with box cutters, i think it is worth knowing. Highly worth knowing.
Is it important that the attack in the gulf of tonkin that started the vietnam war, never happened. Is it important that FDR planned to goad the Japanese into attacking PH - that he made sure it could and would happen? Is it important that Iraq was uninvolved in the 9/11 attacks? How can we ignore truths like these and prioritize them lower than other truths? They all seem hugely important in the grand picture.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
pauled:This reminds me of a story i read when i was young - its meaning escaped me until at least 20 or more years after having read it. The story goes like this: some Russian scientists visiting the west were asked about how good it must be to be away from soviet propaganda for a while, implying that the west was free of such things. They laughed and answered in effect: "You know, when we hear soviet progaganda everybody recognizes it as such - it's a joke." And they continued, "But here in the west, it is quite different: very few recognize the state propaganda as such when they hear it - they think their popular media is free and uncontrolled by their state."
There was a similar story told by John Pilger. He was describing how a bunch of Soviet journalists had come to the US and spent time analyzing the media. At the end they said that they were amazed at how, despite the appearance of dissident opinions and a free press, on the major issues there was little variety in opinion. They were amazed it could be accomplished in the 'free' West because in the USSR it could only be accomplished by pulling out fingernails and the like. I agree, the propoganda in the West really is the best- the vast majority still don't recognize it as such. Tibet and Kosovo are just two of the latest initiatives.
KarlHeinz:I agree, the propoganda in the West really is the best- the vast majority still don't recognize it as such.
Yes. It's funny. When i was twenty, if i heard someone speak of western propaganda the way that i do today, i would just be puzzled at him and in disbelief (and ignorance). Today, if someone expresses the faith in western media that i had back then, i can't resist a smile. And the more adamant they are about it, the funnier it strikes me. LOL!
I can't believe this thread is still going. To me it seems like such a rediculous idea that the government is capable of doing this. I work for the federal government (yes that's right, I'm evil) and can tell you right now that as an institution, it is incapable of commiting conspiracies of this magnitude without leaks. It surprises me how many people who know how incredibly inefficient the government is could believe it could pull it off. Incredible.
"I cannot prove, but am prepared to affirm, that if you take care of clarity in reasoning, most good causes will take care of themselves, while some bad ones are taken care of as a matter of course." -Anthony de Jasay
Solid_Choke: I can't believe this thread is still going. To me it seems like such a rediculous idea that the government is capable of doing this. I work for the federal government (yes that's right, I'm evil) and can tell you right now that as an institution, it is incapable of commiting conspiracies of this magnitude without leaks. It surprises me how many people who know how incredibly inefficient the government is could believe it could pull it off. Incredible.
You seem to be creating a straw man. I don't think the pro-conspiracy people every claimed that the government, as an entity, organised 9/11. Rather that it was a small group of people in well-placed positions conspiring. For you to think that the entire government conspired is rather silly. All that is needed is a small amount of people, with good organisational skills and training. I find it far more unbelievable that a guy sitting in a cave in Afghanistan could have done this.
If you try to trick the market, it will get its revenge.
Solreyus
Fred Furash: All that is needed is a small amount of people, with good organisational skills and training.
IF you actually go through the exercise of planning all the logistics of such an attack, you'll find it's as Solid said: too many people are required; too many opportunities for leaks.
--Len
Len Budney: Fred Furash: All that is needed is a small amount of people, with good organisational skills and training. IF you actually go through the exercise of planning all the logistics of such an attack, you'll find it's as Solid said: too many people are required; too many opportunities for leaks. --Len
Regardless, it's in the best interests of everyone (Iraqis included ) to see a proper investigation done. At the very least, government coverups of incompetence will be the true record of the day.
Also, I would add that the notion that it would be too big to plan secretly, is somewhat undone by the ability to cover it up. The # of coincidences required for things to have gone down as they have been explained is mind boggling.
liberty student:Also, I would add that the notion that it would be too big to plan secretly, is somewhat undone by the ability to cover it up. The # of coincidences required for things to have gone down as they have been explained is mind boggling.
That's a standard mistake all humans make: we all suck at guesstimating probability. Every event is surrounded by thousands of interesting "coincidences." The odds of them all happening is incredibly tiny, if you ask that question in advance. But the odds of finding multiple coincidences after the fact are extremely high.
Consider meeting a woman in a bar, and learning that her mother and yours have the same middle name. You'd ask, "What are the odds of that happening?" But there are infinitely many things you might have noticed: you might have had the same birthday, or a grandparent from Norway, or a best friend with a Corvette, or a one-armed lover, or a deaf nephew, or...
And no matter which coincidence you discovered, you'd have asked, "What are the odds of that?" as if you had gone into the bar looking for someone with a one-armed lover--which you hadn't.
Len, regardless there are still several explanations that are not plausible.
I find this thread very amusing. On this forum, intellectual rigor and veracity are the order of things, but when it comes to an emotional national event like this, many rational, inquisitive people resort to averting their eyes and whispering, "just move along, nothing to see here".
And from what I have seen from the people generally poo-pooing discussion on the topic or writing off inquiry, is that they for the most part seem to be the least informed on the topic. Normally, we'd credit the knowledgable people with disspelling rumor or myth.
I don't know what happened, but I do not fear or wish to avoid finding out. On the contrary, the consequences have been so devastating and far reaching, I think every inconsistency and discrepancy deserves close attention.
liberty student:I find this thread very amusing. On this forum, intellectual rigor and veracity are the order of things, but when it comes to an emotional national event like this, many rational, inquisitive people resort to averting their eyes and whispering, "just move along, nothing to see here".
I certainly don't say that. In specific cases, such as Alex Jones's thermite theory, the conspiracy theory is debunked by cold hard physics, and folks who cling to that theory--like some on this thread, including Juan, but not including you AFAIK--only discredit themselves. When I call someone like that a nut, it's because he's a nut, not because I believe the government.
It's a given that the government has attempted to cover up massive incompetence, at the very least, in connection with 9/11. Much of that coverup has already been exposed, like the government agent who noted Muslims taking flying lessons and claiming they didn't need to learn how to land, before 9/11. The exposure of government ineptitude illustrates the impossibility of keeping an inside job secret.
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