Laughing Man:Right, hearing about hell for several years then being told you are going there is something one can prepare for.
The US hasn't been a real war since Vietnam.
This Arab Muslim went on a rampage because he was enraged at the US's overseas war on Arab Muslims. It ain't complicated. This war has been ongoing since at least the Reagan administration, if not longer, which begs the question why this intelligent Arab Muslim joined the US military.
Byzantine:The US hasn't been a real war since Vietnam.
I find it strange that you say the US hasn't been to war since Vietnam yet say 'This war has been going on since Reagan' so which is it? Are we at war or aren't we? And this man was a Major which means he has been in the military around 10-13 years. That is the average time it takes to be promoted to that level.
'It is difficult to imagine any normal person wishing to meet Marx for a third time.' - Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition
Laughing Man: Stephen:And maybe he should have never joined if he couldn't hack it. Shouldn't you be ready to be sent into combat if you join the army? Duh! Right, hearing about hell for several years then being told you are going there is something one can prepare for.
Stephen:And maybe he should have never joined if he couldn't hack it. Shouldn't you be ready to be sent into combat if you join the army? Duh!
Right, hearing about hell for several years then being told you are going there is something one can prepare for.
It's something you wouldn't have to if you never joined. I'm surprised you feel sympathy for this scummy douche-bag.
Spence: You ever kill anybody?
Sam: I hurt somebody's feelings once.
Those dead because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan strongly disagree.
Stephen:It's something you wouldn't have to if you never joined. I'm surprised you feel sympathy for this scummy douche-bag
How many psychotherapists are expected to pick up a rifle? It is silly to expect this individual to know the future so holding him under the microscope of hindsight seems like a self-serving premise. Is what he did a horrible thing? Absolutely. There were opportunities to become a conscientious objector. Considerations need to be though since this is an individual who has listened to several years about the worst cases of Iraq, then this individual is told he is going. I can understand why he snapped but I can't agree with what he did .
Please. WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam? There is no comparison.
Laughing Man:t is silly to expect this individual to know the future so holding him under the microscope of hindsight seems like a self-serving premise.
Yeah. I mean, this whole thing against Iraq and Afghanistan in 2009--where did that come from? I thought we were just teaching women to read and shit, but then I come to find out we're killing people. I mean, wtf, you know? Who saw that coming?
Laughing Man:It is silly to expect this individual to know the future so holding him under the microscope of hindsight seems like a self-serving premise.
When you join a military force, being sent into combat isn't a certainty, but it is a very real possibility. It isn't like he isn't responsible for joining is it? Care to elaborate on the self-serving part?
Byzantine: Please. WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam? There is no comparison.
??No one knows yet why Major Hasan did this so I won't speculate. But to try and say this not a 'real' war is ludicrous.So does 8 years of constant fighting not make a war? How many years does it take to be a war? How many soldiers have to die before it counts? If it's not a war I wonder what is going on over there. A lot of soldiers have been affected as if it is a 'real' war.At the VA they have whole groups set up to handle all the PTSD. Numerous soldiers have committed suicide because they didn't want to go, a lot of others kill themselves over there, and more when they get back home. All over our VA there are signs for suicide and PTSD counciling services.The suicide rate is outrageous, we're hitting record highs:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100776417&sc=nl&cc=nn-20090217http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2009-01/2009-01-30-voa59.cfm?CFID=319195500&CFTOKEN=43836057&jsessionid=8830aa5666bccd08b890136b7911585d1719
A cult is a religion with no political power. - Tom Wolfe
Life without music would be an error. - Nietzsche
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. - Edward R. Morrow
The suicides are the least of it. American military killed 400,000 civilians over there, spent more money than they spent on Vietnam and suffered 40,000 wounded and 4,500 dead. With Vietnam level medical facilities it would have been 8,500 dead and 36,000 wounded. That is less than in many other wars, but the war in Iraq was largely a war against the Sunni resistance, so when you factor in this fact - that it was fought against a population numbering no more than 5 million people over a land area that is much smaller than the whole of Iraq - it was very intense. Especialy for soldiers in Al Anbar or Bagdad for whom it absolutely was as intense as anything Vietnam had to offer.Also suicides are just one way in which dysfunctionality of many veterans manifests itself, the other is homelessnes, and more damagingly, criminality. The crime rate among returning troops is many times higher than among males in their 20s nationaly. And most of the crimes are violent and senseless. Here is a good story which touched on this: http://www.gazette.com/articles/iframe-59065-eastridge-audio.htmlOf course on one count Byzantine was stil right. Iraq wasn`t a war, it was a massacre. The war was just a sideshow to the massacre.
Marko: American military killed 400,000 civilians over there
Marko:Especialy for soldiers in Al Anbar or Bagdad for whom it absolutely was as intense as anything Vietnam had to offer.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." ~Dream
Byzantine:Yeah. I mean, this whole thing against Iraq and Afghanistan in 2009--where did that come from? I thought we were just teaching women to read and shit, but then I come to find out we're killing people. I mean, wtf, you know? Who saw that coming?
Wonderful sarcasm yet it fails to actually hold true. You seem to think they just give the rank of major to any person who joins the military. This individual must have been in the military for over 10 years. It usually takes about 8 years to reach Captain rank and 10-13 for major depending on your MOS. I went to military college, I have some inkling on how the ranking and promotion system works. I would find it drop dead shocking to see if this guy joined at the beginning of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict and was able to be promoted 3 times in less then a decade.
Laughing Man:This individual must have been in the military for over 10 years. It usually takes about 8 years to reach Captain rank and 10-13 for major depending on your MOS.
Im not following it btw but the point the mainstream seems to be making is about gun control; that if the ppl at ft hood had been able to carry guns they could have stopped him. I'm sure the democrats are going the other direction though :P
Laughing Man:I went to military college,
Laughing Man:I would find it drop dead shocking to see if this guy joined at the beginning of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict and was able to be promoted 3 times in less then a decade.
The Arab insurgency doesn't stack up against Japanese Imperial soldiers, the Wehrmacht, NVA, VC, etc. Again, firefights and IED's are awful things, but there is really no comparison to what US infantry troops faced in WW2 et al.
Stephen: When you join a military force, being sent into combat isn't a certainty, but it is a very real possibility.
When you join a military force, being sent into combat isn't a certainty, but it is a very real possibility.
Yea..if you are combat arms. Maybe even combat support, but service support which is what this MOS is? I don't think so. You don't send shrinks to the battlefield. To do such shows the desperation of the US military.
Stephen:It isn't like he isn't responsible for joining is it?
He of course joined the military. But again, as a psychotherapist not as some infantry man.
Stephen:Care to elaborate on the self-serving part?
The way you use hindsight, you try to pass off the fact that he joined perhaps a decade ago as his future commitment towards a war he obviously didn't agree with and then go on to call him a 'scummy douche bag' who couldn't hack it. I'm willing to bet that many of us here haven't been in war, nor have we been to Iraq. This man did not witness the carnage and horror of it but every day he went to work, he dealt with its after effects. The tales of death, horror and destruction. The consequences from witnessing humanity at its worse. Then he is told 'You're next'. I would like to meet the man who does not filch from such a statement. I'm not an apologist for this man's actions but I'm also not so conceded or so petty to engage in peanut gallery bellowing about the character of this individual.
Laughing Man:Wonderful sarcasm yet it fails to actually hold true.
Actually, it's even more ridiculous. The guy has been in the US since his youth. Now he's shocked and appalled that he's going to be deployed in a support role against Arab Muslims? He could have taken CO status and resigned his commission.
Snowflake:Well it certainly is rare for someone who has been in the military that long to flip out like that. Then again, the ft hood type of thing is pretty uncommon. Whatever led to this it was probably just a fluke.
Well I wouldn't say 'fluke', there have been violent outbursts by soldiers in the past, just many of them have been against the Iraqi people. The emotional toll has finally been brought home.
Snowflake:Then you're not the *real* laughing man...
No one was the real laughing man. He was a stand alone complex. A series of actions brought about by separate individuals who were not conscious of each other and yet were working towards the culmination of the same event.
Snowflake: That's affirmative action for you...
That may be a possbility but I don't recall affirmative action being a driving force in the military. Until I am proven wrong, I will assume that this man was the average officer and it takes a decade or more for them to achieve the rank he was at.
Laughing Man: I would like to meet the man who does not filch from such a statement.
Actually, most of them don't. If anything, they want to be let off the leash to clear the place for American colonization.
Byzantine:Actually, it's even more ridiculous. The guy has been in the US since his youth. Now he's shocked and appalled that he's going to be deployed in a support role against Arab Muslims? He could have taken CO status and resigned his commission.
Yes, I know, I brought that up before. Perhaps he was unaware of it, perhaps he would of felt disgraced. I think it would be a good opportunity to reinforce education on CO. There was an individual on this forum [ his name escapes me ] but there was a topic about him becoming a CO.
Byzantine:Actually, most of them don't. If anything, they want to be let off the leash to clear the place for American colonization.
I don't think that the vast majority of US soldiers are bloodletters. I think there is a group within this institution and that is why you hear about rapes and killings in Iraq.
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