TokyoTom: - "Disestablish any and all public ownership of the means of production, including all land, water, and air resources." I share your objective; why not offer politically feasible steps in the right direction, such as moving public lands into self-funded trusts, or requiring that ANWR, OCS and other royalty lands pay all royalties per capita to citizens? This would get exploration going. - "With private ownership the 90+% of the environmental problems that are simply tragedies of the commons will disappear." Won`t work for the air, of course. Why not work to remove favorable deals for old dirty coal-fired plants, end fed ownership of TVA, and work to make utilities face competition?
- "Disestablish any and all public ownership of the means of production, including all land, water, and air resources."
I share your objective; why not offer politically feasible steps in the right direction, such as moving public lands into self-funded trusts, or requiring that ANWR, OCS and other royalty lands pay all royalties per capita to citizens? This would get exploration going.
- "With private ownership the 90+% of the environmental problems that are simply tragedies of the commons will disappear."
Won`t work for the air, of course. Why not work to remove favorable deals for old dirty coal-fired plants, end fed ownership of TVA, and work to make utilities face competition?
Tom, more power to you on any of those endeavors that don't themselves infringe on liberty a whit.
Human Action Comics Issues 1-6
TokyoTom:Not to be too snarky, but are you sincere?
I'll let my peers judge me on that.
TokyoTom:Aren`t some of the pragmatic steps I`m suggesting quite a bit more modest?
You're not suggesting pragmatism. You're suggesting collaboration with the state to further your personal concerns. Pointing the gun is not modesty.
TokyoTom:I certainly don`t see myself as any sort of victim; rather isn`t it you and others who feel persecuted by littl ol` me?
How could any rational, intelligent, sensitive human being feel persecuted by a climate changer?
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
TokyoTom:eliminating corporate income
TokyoTom:eliminating antitrust immunity for public utility monopolies
TokyoTom:ending Clean Air Act handouts to the worst utilities (or otherwise unwinding burdensome regulations and moving to lighter and more common-law dependent approaches)
TokyoTom:ending energy subsidies
TokyoTom:rolling back domestic agricultural corporate welfare programs (ethanol and sugar), etc.
TokyoTom: fully-rebated carbon tax (ethanol and sugar), etc.
TokyoTom:Other policy changes could also be put on the table, such as an insistence that government resource management be improved by requiring that half of all royalties be rebated to citizens (with a slice to the administering agency).
Spence: You ever kill anybody?
Sam: I hurt somebody's feelings once.
liberty student: TokyoTom:Not to be too snarky, but are you sincere? I'll let my peers judge me on that.
He's sincere.
Conza88:
a clear cut distinction between the ultimate goal itself, and how to go about achieving it.
The goal, of course is more liberty; it has to be won by chiselling at it, including by persuading others of its efficacy.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."
-- Richard Feynman
Byzantine, you can play dumb all you want about CO2.
But I`m not here to talk about non-problems, but how to win more liberty.
lilburne, thanks, but the consensus here is that those things all infringe on liberty, so I should just content myself to stand aside while things get worse.
There is nothing libertarian to come from perpetuating outright fraud. So not only are you willing to use a gun, but you're also willing to lie to achieve your ends? I definitely hope this is not your sincere position, and take time to reflect the ramifications of this error.
************************
To me the most meaningful point from this thread has been the identification of the treaty to create a world communist government. Any comments on that?
ls, you can dish it out, but don`t take it very well, I see.
- "You're suggesting collaboration with the state to further your personal concerns."
Um, I THINK I`m suggesting to OTHER people how they can modify their demands in ways that will help them with their goal and be far less destructiuve than their current propsals, while I can get what I want (more freedom + less climate pushing).
- "any rational, intelligent, sensitive human being"
Nice way to turn MY supposed victimization into your own. You`re bigger than this pity party, I think.
TokyoTom:lilburne, thanks, but the consensus here is that those things all infringe on liberty, so I should just content myself to stand aside while things get worse.
Non Sequitur.
Stephen, thanks for the actual feedback! I was starting to think that I had asked WAY too much.
But what are your thoughts about dealing with public utilities? And wouldn``t insisting that citizens get a per capita cut of royalties be a good step on the way to privatization?
TokyoTom:Um, I THINK I`m suggesting to OTHER people how they can modify their demands in ways that will help them with their goal and be far less destructiuve than their current propsals, while I can get what I want (more freedom + less climate pushing).
What other people? What demands? What goals? What current proposals?
TokyoTom:Nice way to turn MY supposed victimization into your own.
That is the opposite of my point. No one is your victim, and I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who will admit to being a victim of CC or AGW in this forum.
TokyoTom:accelerating cleaner power investments by eliminating corporate income taxes or allowing immediate depreciation of capital investment (which would make new investments more attractive),
Sounds good. Taxes should be abolished.
TokyoTom:eliminating antitrust immunity for public utility monopolies (to increase competition, allow consumer choice, peak pricing and "smart metering" that will rapidly push efficiency gains),
Shouldn't you eliminate all anti-trust laws as opposed to immunity? All companies should be immune to anti-trust. Also, you should simultaneously remove restrictive regulations and licensing issues to increase competition.
TokyoTom: ending Clean Air Act handouts to the worst utilities (or otherwise unwinding burdensome regulations and moving to lighter and more common-law dependent approaches),
ending Clean Air Act handouts to the worst utilities (or otherwise unwinding burdensome regulations and moving to lighter and more common-law dependent approaches),
In conjunction with removing all federal pollution laws.
TokyoTom:ending energy subsidies generally (including federal liability caps for nuclear power (and allowing states to license)
Sounds good, you'd have to decrease several taxes as well, otherwise the cost could balloon for the consumer which could result in a big backlash.
TokyoTom:speeding economic growth and adaptation in the poorer countries most threatened by climate change by rolling back domestic agricultural corporate welfare programs (ethanol and sugar), etc.
Absolutely, but it should apply to all countries. I can't think of any immediate issues that would arise in the U.S. (other than any angry farmers).
Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même
KCF, I think you got the wrong thread.
I`m asking for suggestions on incremental policy changes that might fly AND be desired by libertarians, but you guys, like liberty student, all "sincerely" set on the "modest" policy of hoping that the state will simply wink out of existence, your only contribution, it seems, being to castigate those who are willing to make the effort to explain anything to non-libertarians.
Angurse, thanks for the comments. You must hate liberty too!
While complete elimination of pollution laws in favor of enforcing property rights is desirable, and I have suggested elsewhere that many enviros would take in exhange for carbon taxes, it simply won`t happen, largely because INDUSTRY likes the barriers to entry and the dirtier plants like their grandfathering.
Ending energy subsidies wouldn`t cause anything to balloon; I don`t follow you.
Eliminating corporate welfare in agriculture we can do unilaterally; we`re better off even if there are subsidies elsewhere.
TokyoTom:I`m asking for suggestions on incremental policy changes that might fly
Anything with power and money flies in the empire.
TokyoTom:AND be desired by libertarians
Well, we are libertarians.
TokyoTom:but you guys, like liberty student, all "sincerely" set on the "modest" policy of hoping that the state will simply wink out of existence
Strawman or lie? If it is the latter, your time here will be short.
TokyoTom:your only contribution, it seems, being to castigate those who are willing to make the effort to explain anything to non-libertarians.
Where are the non-libertarians?
TokyoTom:I`m asking for suggestions on incremental policy changes that might fly AND be desired by libertarians, but you guys, like liberty student, all "sincerely" set on the "modest" policy of hoping that the state will simply wink out of existence, your only contribution, it seems, being to castigate those who are willing to make the effort to explain anything to non-libertarians.
Incremental environmental policy changes only enforce the argument that there even is a global warming/climate change problem. The correct response to global warming/climate change/ whatever hoax they want to call in next is direct 100% refutation. CO2 footprints are irrelevant. Cleaner engergy comes from a freer society based on libertarian capitalist principles. If you want to push for incremental freedom, by all means do so, but leave all the environmentalist crap out of it because you're only empowering the other side to achieve their own objectives - which have absolutely nothing to do with the environment.
TokyoTom: While complete elimination of pollution laws in favor of enforcing property rights is desirable, and I have suggested elsewhere that many enviros would take in exhange for carbon taxes, it simply won`t happen, largely because INDUSTRY likes the barriers to entry and the dirtier plants like their grandfathering.
Saying it simply won't happen because large companies don't want it seems to counter previous examples you've given. The big companies like handouts, the big companies like anti-trust immunity.
TokyoTom:Ending energy subsidies wouldn`t cause anything to balloon; I don`t follow you.
Energy subsidies keep the prices below the market level, if you remove them the price (from the consumer POV) will rise. Of course, the current market price is much higher than it could/should be.
TokyoTom:Eliminating corporate welfare in agriculture we can do unilaterally; we`re better off even if there are subsidies elsewhere.
Agreed.
ls, I`m afraid I don`t really get what`s with you. I`ve really treated you rather nicely, but you seem to want to have an enemy. Sorry, but I don`t really want to play..
your time here will be short.
The snappy answer, of course, is that this is MY line, but then I`m one of those rational, caring and sensitive people who doesn`t hide his lack of self-confidence with threats. FYI, I`ve been commenting at LvMI for 5 1/2 years.
Um, the ones who read my blog. For REAL libertarians, their beliefs are not an echo chamber. Instead, they try to persuade other people. That seems to be beyond your ability to conceive.
if the state did enact what Stephen gave the thumbs up to, and did not justify other retrogressive acts by appeal to having past those progressive acts, then without endorsing the state, or its other retrogressive policies, i would look favourably upon the liberalization that took place, and I would hope for more until the state was gone
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Ludwig von Mises Institute | 518 West Magnolia Avenue | Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528
Phone: 334.321.2100 · Fax: 334.321.2119
contact@Mises.org | webmaster | AOL-IM MainMises
Mises.org sitemap