Laughing Man:Well why do you see it as a waste?
Already answered in detail.
Laughing Man:Well I don't think the audit the fed bill was trying to strategically place anyone in the government.
I never said it was trying to.
Laughing Man:Well I think some people think its is an effective way.
Argumentum ad populum.
Laughing Man:See what I mean, absolute cynic.
No. I'm not cynical about liberty. I am cynical about using monopoly violence to accomplish it.
Laughing Man:This is an absolutely ridiculous statement and you should know this.
*Sigh*
Laughing Man:What does Thomas Woods do?
I'll give you that, Woods is the exception to the rule. But he's not Walter Block or Tom DiLorenzo or Bob Murphy. He's certainly not Lew Rockwell.
Laughing Man:How often is Ron Paul's name invoked in the LvMi lectures calling him the only honorable politician.
Irrelevant to my statement.
Laughing Man:I'm not a Ron Paul fan anymore but I obviously see the absurdity in you claiming that Ron Paul goes unspoken. The LvMi sells all of Ron Paul's books and even put his new work in the 'End the Fed' collection
It would be absurd if I did it. But I didn't.
Laughing Man: Granted this is not the C4L, obviously. However, you seem to be implicitly trying to alienate them from the LvMi for what I conceive to be as faulty reasons.
The C4L is not Ron Paul. It is John Tate.
I'm not trying to alienate them. They are not Austrians or libertarians. Generally, the C4L is a conservative grassroots organization with RP as its honourary chairman.
You might be happy with working towards second bests. I'm not. Empowering Congress is not a solution. As shown, they are completely corrupt. Even if the FED was audited, nothing would come from it. The crimes of the state are no secret. They torture and mass murder and there is no accountability.
The only solution worth pursuing, is educating people on the principles of freedom, not teaching them to lobby their tyrant.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
liberty student: I'll give you that, Woods is the exception to the rule. But he's not Walter Block or Tom DiLorenzo or Bob Murphy. He's certainly not Lew Rockwell.
What do you mean Tom Woods is not Bob Murphy?_____________________
The push for 1207 was a success. What came out of it showed a lot of people that the USA is not a democracy. It forced the power elite to do one more thing to de-legitimize their hold on power in the eyes of their victims. It forced the state to unmask itself stil further. And it will have its day jet when its gutting raises an eyebrow in China and pushes the day of reckoning all that closer.
Marko:The push for 1207 was a success. What came out of it showed a lot of people that the USA is not a democracy.
And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people? That democracy works?
liberty student: And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people? That democracy works?
Pressumably it would have shown people the state of affairs at the fed in greater detail.It could never have succeeded in there a real audit occuring. They can no more allow an audit than Bernie Madoff could have. They were always going to block it, it was just a question of how clumsy they are going to be in doing it. The more clumsy the more people take notice, the better for us. They were not clumsy at all, in the way they deflected the bullet was very shrewd. However it was so very sneaky and underhanded, so very unsportmanlike that those who did take notice won`t ever forget about it.There were 307 names on the bill, and some no-name from the most ridicilously gerrymandered district east of Mississipi just cancelled it. Brilliant! Who ever thought there would be even 30 congressmen co-sponsoring?
Marko: liberty student: And if it had succeeded, what would it have showed a lot of people? That democracy works? Pressumably it would have shown people the state of affairs at the fed in greater detail.
Pressumably it would have shown people the state of affairs at the fed in greater detail.
That's not an answer to my question. That is equivocating.
If the faith in government is undermined, then I count the loss on the bill as a win for liberty.
You can't have it both ways, where if it fails, that is going for undermining the state, and if it passes, well everyone gets what they want. The point is that getting what you want by using the power of the state is illegitimate. Otherwise, all of those other people who lobby the government for bailouts, and regulation and military contracts are just using the same means, for their own personal gain. Those people lobbying for single payer health care are using the same means.
The lesson of democracy, is that just because people can obtain something politically, doesn't legitimize illegitimate political means.
liberty student: You can't have it both ways, where if it fails, that is going for undermining the state, and if it passes, well everyone gets what they want. The point is that getting what you want by using the power of the state is illegitimate. Otherwise, all of those other people who lobby the government for bailouts, and regulation and military contracts are just using the same means, for their own personal gain. Those people lobbying for single payer health care are using the same means. The lesson of democracy, is that just because people can obtain something politically, doesn't legitimize illegitimate political means.
Marko:Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to lower the amount of protection money demanded from you?
Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to increase the amount of protection [sic]?
Marko:Using political means is illegitimate when the people are targeted. When the state itself is targeted it is perfectly fine.
Same thing. The distinction is meaningless.
Some people want the FED audited, some do not. Whose will gets carried out?
Marko:Otherwise you might as well say a newly elected president ending a war on the grounds of it being unconstitutional is illegitimate.
Consequentialist argument.
Look, I get it. I was there in the Revolution. I know, people might admit the state is not legitimate, and insist they can vote "defensively". They can talk about how the the LP is a waste of time, and still vote the "lesser of two evils". How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in. Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.
I just don't agree. I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.
The Fed is the not the problem. The problem is monopoly. The monopoly is never going to vote itself away.
Think outside the monopoly paradigm. Net-based microsecession | Why anarchy hasn't worked
liberty student: Marko:Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to lower the amount of protection money demanded from you? Is it illegitimate to petition your local mafia boss to increase the amount of protection [sic]?
Are you the only one who is going to be affected by the increase? Do show me where is the agression in petitioning your local mafia boss to lower your protection money?
liberty student: Marko:Using political means is illegitimate when the people are targeted. When the state itself is targeted it is perfectly fine. Same thing. The distinction is meaningless.
No it is not. Political means are wrong because they equal force. But it is not wrong to use force against the state and rise up in arms against it in the first place.
liberty student: Some people want the FED audited, some do not. Whose will gets carried out?
What does this have to do with me?
liberty student: Marko:Otherwise you might as well say a newly elected president ending a war on the grounds of it being unconstitutional is illegitimate. Consequentialist argument.
Do be consistent. You were saying the congress abolishing the fed is illegitimate. Therefore a president ending a war is illegitimate. Yes or no? Can the act of ending a war be illegitimate? Can the act of asking someone to do an act that is not illegitimate be illegitimate?
liberty student: Marko:Look, I get it. I was there in the Revolution. I know, people might admit the state is not legitimate, and insist they can vote "defensively". They can talk about how the the LP is a waste of time, and still vote the "lesser of two evils". How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in. Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.
Marko:Look, I get it. I was there in the Revolution. I know, people might admit the state is not legitimate, and insist they can vote "defensively". They can talk about how the the LP is a waste of time, and still vote the "lesser of two evils". How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in. Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.
Has nothing to do with anything I wrote.
liberty student: I just don't agree. I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.
Where did I suggest anything that can be construed as a compromise?
Remember we are talking about 1207. We are not talking about the lesser of two evils. We are talking wether does it constitute an act of agression to send an e-mail to a congressman to petition him to co-sponsor 1207? We are not even talking about whether it is tactically sound to do so. We are talking about whether it is evil.
Marko:Do show me where is the agression in petitioning your local mafia boss to lower your protection money?
Not the same argument.
Marko:But it is not wrong to use force against the state and rise up in arms against it in the first place.
You're not using force against the state. You are using the state.
Marko:What does this have to do with me?
You claim it is ok for you to defend your interests using the state. How does this differ from the constituency who benefits from the FED? If it is ok for you to lobby, then surely it is ok for them to lobby as well, correct?
Marko:Do be consistent. You were saying the congress abolishing the fed is illegitimate. Therefore a president ending a war is illegitimate. Yes or no?
Yes, a president ending a war is illegitimate. Because a president starting a war in the first place is illegitimate. The president as an office is illegitimate. You're making the typical minarchist argument. The state is ok if it is doing what you want. It is a consequentialist argument.
Marko:Where did I suggest anything that can be construed as a compromise?
Your entire argument is a compromise. Instead of delegitimizing the mafia, you negotiate for better rates.
Marko:We are talking about whether it is evil.
I don't think it is legitimate. I think it is misguided, and I think it is counter-productive. I don't want to call it evil, because that would mean I am calling Ron Paul evil. Suffice it to say, I don't agree with his strategy. I also don't agree with libertarians who vote. YMMV.
Well, what did you expect? Now that the US economy is in "full jobless recovery" there's no time with sad and gloom: go out and spend, spend, spend! I would like to know how many of the 308 co-sponsors (apart from Dr Paul himself) really knew what they were doing and how many signed the bill just because they believed it to be a good political move. But now that the US GDP is steaming ahead once again who wants to hold this hot potato? Let Dr Paul be the usual "crackpot" and celebrate democracy by going out and spending some more money the FED just printed!
Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!
liberty student: How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in. Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it. I just don't agree. I think that those compromises are why libertarianism has not advanced significantly in the political arena and never will.
How it is ok to take money from the state, because you pay taxes in. Nothing sunk my heart my heart more than seeing Bob Higgs on C-Span or Book TV say he was going to take social security because he was forced to pay into it.
It should be perfectly OK to try to get some of your looted money back from the State while trying to dismantle it. In fact, the position of not taking anything back is absurd. There is no way I'm going to let the Statists loot me and then donate it right back into the system.
You have to use the public roads and street even if you think they are illegitimate.
You may have to send you children to public school if you can't afford private.
You have to utilize State doctors and Hospitals if this is your only option.
liberty student:I never said it was trying to.
You specifically stated that:
liberty student:No, it is a declaration to the citizenry that we think the government is legitimate, and if we can just get the right people in, then we can have liberty.
The Fed bill was not about getting the 'right people in'
liberty student:Argumentum ad populum
I believe it was effective for the reasons I gave concerning inspiring individual to look at the Fed. There may be others who agree with me and there are certainly some who don't.
liberty student:The C4L is not Ron Paul. It is John Tate.
Right, Ron Paul is not the center of attention at C4L...it's John Tate.
liberty student:I'm not trying to alienate them. They are not Austrians or libertarians. Generally, the C4L is a conservative grassroots organization with RP as its honourary chairman.
Have you seen the reading materials in the Education section? They have Rothbard, DiLorenzo, Woods, Murphy, Mises, De Soto, Hoppe, Salerno, Higgs, Rockwell. They have all their works in there and a whole reading section on Austrian economics.
liberty student:You might be happy with working towards second bests. I'm not.
And you might be happy sitting on the sidelines until your 'big moment' comes. This hurry up and wait mentality doesn't work. Government is getting to the point where second best is better then last place.
liberty student:Empowering Congress is not a solution. As shown, they are completely corrupt.
Empowering Congress to do what? More power to print more money? They don't already have that ability? At least you have 534 idiots trying to manage something that is already too efficient. Why not introduce the idiots into the equation to make the Fed more haphazard?
liberty student:Even if the FED was audited, nothing would come from it.
People would grow to realize how destructive the Fed is. That is how they are being ripped off. That is how the war machine is finance. It is the lynchpin of the welfare-warfare state.
liberty student:The crimes of the state are no secret.
Right because the dealings of the Fed were so well known before Ron Paul started talking about them. We all knew it, we were just happy to have fiat currency.
liberty student:They torture and mass murder and there is no accountability.
Right, we have no anti-war movement, no outrage over torture. Your throwing yourself into a corner. First you say 'Don't work within government, its a waste of time, grassroots, lets get the people to do it' then you are implying that no one does anything to make the government accountable.
liberty student:The only solution worth pursuing, is educating people on the principles of freedom, not teaching them to lobby their tyrant.
And the Audit the Fed bill did that. It was on the news, I'm sure it sparked some curiosity. Thomas Wood's book Meltdown, NYT bestseller for several weeks, all about the Fed. Ron Paul's End the Fed, NYT bestseller, all about the Fed. The interest in the Fed is on the raise, and this bill was an attempt to get it more coverage and the thin hope that it might be passed and have an organization that has never been audit finally be audited.
'It is difficult to imagine any normal person wishing to meet Marx for a third time.' - Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition
Wow this dialogue is quite interesting. There seems to be an overplaying of dialectics between the Laughing Man and Liberty Student. I think they're both right. Liberty Student is right in that it's incredibly hard to force the state to make real change. Laughing Man is also right that Democracy can do something and that it can have an impact on how we see things and what things we do or don't do. We shouldn't give up. If we don't vote and don't do anything to the elections or infiltrate the parties or whatever there's no way we'll get our reforms across. That's how I see it. We need real change. We can't just sit here and do nothing.
SilentXtarian: Wow this dialogue is quite interesting. There seems to be an overplaying of dialectics between the Laughing Man and Liberty Student. I think they're both right. Liberty Student is right in that it's incredibly hard to force the state to make real change. Laughing Man is also right that Democracy can do something and that it can have an impact on how we see things and what things we do or don't do. We shouldn't give up. If we don't vote and don't do anything to the elections or infiltrate the parties or whatever there's no way we'll get our reforms across. That's how I see it. We need real change. We can't just sit here and do nothing.
How successful was Gandhi? Did he use the system?
At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.
Conza88:The situation was a win win proposition from the start. No matter what they did, the FED was screwed. This shows the system can in no way be reformed.
Or it just shows that people need to try harder...
Conza88:Actions like this will further push "limited government" folk and others into favoring the complete abolition of the state. Or at least completely adopt the argument from morality.
Or that they just need to somehow try harder...
liberty student: Completely expected. What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.
Completely expected. What an enormous waste of time and money pushing this bill.
Which is why I did not waste any time or money pushing it (and I assume you did not either). I am very glad for all the people that Ron Paul brought into the movement during his presidential campaign. But after that, all I ever really hear him talk about is his stupid bill. I hear about it on his news interviews. I heard about it on freedom watch all the time. And now his son Rand Paul is getting into politics, and he does not seem that liberty loving to me.
liberty student:You'll notice, LvMI and LRC don't promote C4L causes. There is a reason for that. We're not reformists.
And boy am I glad they don't. C4L seems like such a weak organization, IMO. I am part of the group, and all they ever seem to do is send me emails telling me to call the politicians and beg them to be nice. At least LvMI and LRC put out thought provoking articles. LRC even puts out some that are just more light hearted and entertaining too.
Laughing Man:And you might be happy sitting on the sidelines until your 'big moment' comes.
How do you know this is what I am doing?
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