K.C. Farmer:I'd also suggest that the last thing to do in spreading the word is to draw professors away from other universities and colleges where they may be more effective in converting students to our position.
I must respectfully disagree with this point. I haven't seen a lot of students who have studied directly under Block, Salerno and others at their current universities, going on to become strong voices for human freedom and Austrian Economics. I've heard Block and Raico in lectures express frustration at the overwhelming Commie tendencies of most of his students. I think most University students of these great men simply are deaf to their message.
I think Adam's idea would be more effective. It would involve teachers like Block and Salerno providing students, who already have the passion (gained from their own independent studies), with rock solid and super-efficient academic training.
For example, Liberty Student, Laughing Man, and nirGraham are strong writers as they are already: LS in political theory, LM in history, and nir in economics. But can you imagine how strong they'd be if LS studied directly under Block, LM under Raico, and nir under Salerno? They'd be titans!
After their tutelage directly under such brilliant teachers, they then could go on to edify their own students in the same way.
Now THAT would be a recipe for a victorious academic movement.
Human Action Comics Issues 1-6
Lilburne: For example, Liberty Student, Laughing Man, and nirGraham are strong writers as they are already: LS in political theory, LM in history, and nir in economics.
For example, Liberty Student, Laughing Man, and nirGraham are strong writers as they are already: LS in political theory, LM in history, and nir in economics.
Where can we read their stuff?
Wow. I'm much flattered. To have direct access to advice, occasional tutelage and 'guidance' from a master like Salerno would encourage me to get serious and methodical with my studies, rather than my current haphazard approach...
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
You know, I never thought of it this way. Consumers could really take control of this. There just needs to be a mechanism or means by which consumers who want to pay for this type of service can connect with the suppliers (the teachers) who want to do this kind of thing for a living.
I will go out on a limb here and say the first steps to getting something like this would be:
1. consumers to post somewhere online that they are willing to pay someone to set up a class for them on Austrian theory. The amount need not be required at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in learning about, and what thinkers they would be interested in learning from.
2. suppliers or teachers could post online that they would be willing to teach courses on Austrian theory. Again, the amount need not be require at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in teaching, and maybe post some evidence to show what qualifies them to teach such a course.
If we could get those 2 steps done then I think that a market for such transactions might emerge if there is enough demand for it from both sides.
does this seem feasible? how would we implement such a thing? could it be another part of the mises website or should it be something separate?
Only ideas can overcome ideas...
Spideynw: K.C. Farmer:While a full-fledged traditional university would be cool, how many of the excellent people who contribute would be unable to do what they do now? The faculty does not have to be made up of the current faculty. And if they did it, it would be their choice, meaning they would feel it would be more valuable than teaching at another university.
K.C. Farmer:While a full-fledged traditional university would be cool, how many of the excellent people who contribute would be unable to do what they do now?
The faculty does not have to be made up of the current faculty. And if they did it, it would be their choice, meaning they would feel it would be more valuable than teaching at another university.
True, but how many professors or professionals are actually available to contribute? What requirements would a Virtual Mises University have in order to contribute as a professor or lecturer?
I say professors and professionals because I see the need for both. While Federal and State certification or licensing is unnecessary, the University should have it's own accreditation system. It can, and probably should be based on the level of comptetence in a particular area or field. That can be a subjective standard or the bar could be set so that the qualifications are even higher. The qualifications for lecturer would obviously be minimal - with the requirement that they at least know the subject they will talk about.
Lilburne:I haven't seen a lot of students who have studied directly under Block, Salerno and others at their current universities, going on to become strong voices for human freedom and Austrian Economics. I've heard Block and Raico in lectures express frustration at the overwhelming Commie tendencies of most of his students. I think most University students of these great men simply are deaf to their message.
This is very sad indeed. I've also heard them comment that they end up having that one student that gets it, and it makes everything worth while.
I guess they would have to choose which arena to do battle in. Some like the challenge of a lost cause, or at least the long shot. I think some of them actually love the debates due to being in enemy territory. Getting them to sign up even part time would be a huge boon.
Wade: You know, I never thought of it this way. Consumers could really take control of this. There just needs to be a mechanism or means by which consumers who want to pay for this type of service can connect with the suppliers (the teachers) who want to do this kind of thing for a living. I will go out on a limb here and say the first steps to getting something like this would be: 1. consumers to post somewhere online that they are willing to pay someone to set up a class for them on Austrian theory. The amount need not be required at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in learning about, and what thinkers they would be interested in learning from. 2. suppliers or teachers could post online that they would be willing to teach courses on Austrian theory. Again, the amount need not be require at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in teaching, and maybe post some evidence to show what qualifies them to teach such a course. If we could get those 2 steps done then I think that a market for such transactions might emerge if there is enough demand for it from both sides. does this seem feasible? how would we implement such a thing? could it be another part of the mises website or should it be something separate?
Hmm... a free market solution to a virtual Mises University.
To do it properly, some entrepreneur should approach Mr. Rockwell with a proposal. There is already a Mises University connected to the Mises Institute. There may be some long range plans in place to do something we are discussing. That last thing a virtual Mises University would want to do is undermine the good efforts already underway.
They'd need an eBay-like tool for arranging classes, and tools for a virtual classroom to include video conferencing. The infrastructure and software licensing would be the major costs, but that can be offset with a standard usage fee. Once the tools are in place, it's up to the teachers and students to come together and exchange knowledge and ideas. I can see benefits to this arrangement on both sides.
The other area that could be covered in a similar fashion is research programs for businesses.
K.C. Farmer: Wade: You know, I never thought of it this way. Consumers could really take control of this. There just needs to be a mechanism or means by which consumers who want to pay for this type of service can connect with the suppliers (the teachers) who want to do this kind of thing for a living. I will go out on a limb here and say the first steps to getting something like this would be: 1. consumers to post somewhere online that they are willing to pay someone to set up a class for them on Austrian theory. The amount need not be required at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in learning about, and what thinkers they would be interested in learning from. 2. suppliers or teachers could post online that they would be willing to teach courses on Austrian theory. Again, the amount need not be require at this point. They would just need to state what aspects of Austrian theory they would be interested in teaching, and maybe post some evidence to show what qualifies them to teach such a course. If we could get those 2 steps done then I think that a market for such transactions might emerge if there is enough demand for it from both sides. does this seem feasible? how would we implement such a thing? could it be another part of the mises website or should it be something separate? Hmm... a free market solution to a virtual Mises University. To do it properly, some entrepreneur should approach Mr. Rockwell with a proposal. There is already a Mises University connected to the Mises Institute. There may be some long range plans in place to do something we are discussing. That last thing a virtual Mises University would want to do is undermine the good efforts already underway. They'd need an eBay-like tool for arranging classes, and tools for a virtual classroom to include video conferencing. The infrastructure and software licensing would be the major costs, but that can be offset with a standard usage fee. Once the tools are in place, it's up to the teachers and students to come together and exchange knowledge and ideas. I can see benefits to this arrangement on both sides. The other area that could be covered in a similar fashion is research programs for businesses.
Excellent thoughts.
"It would be preposterous to assert apodictically that science will never succeed in developing a praxeological aprioristic doctrine of political organization..." (Mises, UF, p.98)
I am a web developer. I recently quit an insanely high-paying job with a government contractor that I fell into (ironically enough developing syllabus and training software for the opposite ethical good that this University would be) on the moral grounds of my own hypocrisy as an anarcho-capitalist and long-time Mises supporter. I intended to start my own company developing software-as-a-service products...
...but this sounds much more worthwhile, maybe not monetarily, but it would be a lot more satisfying. I have already learned more from Mises.org than the 4 years I spent in a University; through their books, audio lectures, etc. But if we could develop, with Mises Inst endorsement and help, a full curriculum for undergraduate and graduate economic and business studies in an online environment.... I'm speechless and not only would I develop it, but I would be the first student to sign up and rip up any degree from a statist-sympathized University.
It sounds like from this forum so far, that we have teachers, we have students, and: I want to build it.
A week ago or so, I submitted my resume to Jeffery Tucker on the off chance that they may need any additional help with web or database development. I know I can make money on my own, I've done it before my moral mishap working for the government, and I know I can do it again. But, this is a chance to educate and redeem myself, and be part of the best hope for all of our economic futures.
My offer still stands to work for anything that could pay for a meager cost of living in Auburn, the rest of my real market worth in salary would be a donation, so the Mises Institute has my information, you guys have the idea, lets leave the ball in their court :)
I would dump my college in a millisecond if this were possible. It could be hosted at MisesUniversity.org or (maybe) MisesUniversity.edu or Mises.edu. Who knows? Maybe it doesn't even have to be accredited. If Mises University could get a good name in the private sector, who would need state accreditation?
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I love the ideas proposed above about the "ebay" type system, but I'm afraid that it would not work well for an educational system.
I think it should be focused on the (supplier) Educator's ability to teach insofar as he is an expert in a field and is endorsed by the Mises Institute, an academic authority on the subject. Given that he/she is the expert, the Educator should be the designer of the curriculum and offer his services to the market and bestow a certificate, in his name, on the student upon completing said curriculum, just as the current system proposes.
If it is student-centered (consumer), how does a student that does not know the concept of algebra know that there may be a concept called calculus that he should post and ask for education about?
Sorry for all the posts, but I am excited about the concept! I want to bring up that with some of the latest Cloud Computing technologies (namely Azure) and utilizing in-browser client-side tools like Silverlight, the licensing and bandwidth costs for a very rich multi-media university could be kept very small.
Here's how an eBay style system would function in an educational setting.
Professors/Lecturers would post courses for students to bid on. They could set a reserve price for the course, so that they can at least cover their minimum expenses. Professors/Lecturers would then set the threshhold for the minimum and maximum number of students. So for example, a minimum of 5 students and a maximum of 10. Students would bid for the course based on their subjective value - like any other good. The highest bidders are then placed in the class - those who bidded just under the winners' bids can be placed on a waiting list. If there aren't enough bidders for the minimum number of students for at least the reserve price, then the course is cancelled. Auctions can be completed weeks or months in advance. Professors/lecturers would set terms of the contract - for example, a period to opt out of the course for possibly a limited refund (waiting list students could then step in).
There would be a natural tendancy for professors/lecturers to collaborate on the curriculum, most likely via the existing organization. Prerequisite and core courses would be established based on consumer demand. The subjects themselves provide a sequence of course work that should be completed in order to obtain mastery. While the professor may hand out grades or a certificate of mastery, it's incumbent on the student to obtain and maintain mastery of a given subject. It's also beneficial for the university and professors/lecturers to find out what interests the students. While students may not know specific details of a subject, they are able to distinguish what they are or are not interested in.
The classroom portion of the effort would be pretty simple, and there are many existing universities that have been pretty successful using similar technology.
The end product would be the certification and record keeping processes. Getting businesses to buy into the certified course or degree programs would be very beneficial. That's where the university to business relationship comes into play. First, by providing research beneficial to business, and then by providing employees and managers with a solid education. The real benefits come when graduates start businesses themselves.
K.C. Farmer: Here's how an eBay style system would function in an educational setting. Professors/Lecturers would post courses for students to bid on. They could set a reserve price for the course, so that they can at least cover their minimum expenses. Professors/Lecturers would then set the threshhold for the minimum and maximum number of students. So for example, a minimum of 5 students and a maximum of 10. Students would bid for the course based on their subjective value - like any other good. The highest bidders are then placed in the class - those who bidded just under the winners' bids can be placed on a waiting list. If there aren't enough bidders for the minimum number of students for at least the reserve price, then the course is cancelled. Auctions can be completed weeks or months in advance. Professors/lecturers would set terms of the contract - for example, a period to opt out of the course for possibly a limited refund (waiting list students could then step in). There would be a natural tendancy for professors/lecturers to collaborate on the curriculum, most likely via the existing organization. Prerequisite and core courses would be established based on consumer demand. The subjects themselves provide a sequence of course work that should be completed in order to obtain mastery. While the professor may hand out grades or a certificate of mastery, it's incumbent on the student to obtain and maintain mastery of a given subject. It's also beneficial for the university and professors/lecturers to find out what interests the students. While students may not know specific details of a subject, they are able to distinguish what they are or are not interested in. The classroom portion of the effort would be pretty simple, and there are many existing universities that have been pretty successful using similar technology. The end product would be the certification and record keeping processes. Getting businesses to buy into the certified course or degree programs would be very beneficial. That's where the university to business relationship comes into play. First, by providing research beneficial to business, and then by providing employees and managers with a solid education. The real benefits come when graduates start businesses themselves.
Wow!
I like it!
K.C. Farmer:While the professor may hand out grades or a certificate of mastery, it's incumbent on the student to obtain and maintain mastery of a given subject.
Maybe a student could elect to either audit the class without participation or submit to be graded or certified (at additional charge, because of professors' additional services).
K.C. Farmer:The end product would be the certification and record keeping processes. Getting businesses to buy into the certified course or degree programs would be very beneficial. That's where the university to business relationship comes into play. First, by providing research beneficial to business, and then by providing employees and managers with a solid education. The real benefits come when graduates start businesses themselves.
The site could also allow businesses (or interested individuals and orgs) to sponsor and follow students' progress. The site could also let prospective employers see what classes and certifications a student has received, with the permission of the student, or let prospective employers even post a recommended curriculum!
The main point is that utilizing the free market the project would set up the most beneficial, efficient system. I don't claim to have all of the answers, but if you set up the tools to support a free market for education then anything is possible.
I'd also suggest a pretty good legal department for when the State comes in to challenge the university for providing a superior education at an affordable price, which makes the state-run universities look bad. They'd definitely want to tax it.
Now just imagine a free market Mises University football team...
Haha, yes, legal department would be a necessary Evil. But The University of Phoenix is an example of a non-accredited university charging thousands of dollars for a piece of paper. The ideas presented here would be naturally more competitive (in price and quality) to them.
K.C. Farmer:They'd definitely want to tax it.
Nah, it could be a 501(C) (like nu.edu), they'd tax the business and product development team's salaries though :-P Professors would be 1099'd or paid directly by the students.
To those interested: I say we give LvMI first shot at the idea (branding and endorsement alone would be best for the survivability and financing of the site). If it is not part of their vision, we raise some capital and make it happen! Although I did study finance in college too, I'm not sure if capital would be easier to raise for this particular project if it were a 501(C) (charitable tax deduction organization), or a business that investors could have shares in.
Wes Cooper:The University of Phoenix is an example of a non-accredited university charging thousands of dollars for a piece of paper.
Are you sure they aren't accredited?
In any case, if Mises University weren't accredited, it would still have some merit. Getting grades from guys with PhDs shows something. But that's just my humble opinion...
krazy kaju:Are you sure they aren't accredited?
They were accredited by "The Higher Learning Commission" in 2002, but I believe they have failed "WASC" accreditation since.
http://www.phoenix.edu/about_us/accreditation/faqs.html
I'm sorry, I don't know for sure. I just know there was controversy surrounding their accreditation and remember hearing about it in the local media.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Phoenix#Accreditation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Phoenix#Legal_and_regulatory_actions
krazy kaju:In any case, if Mises University weren't accredited, it would still have some merit. Getting grades from guys with PhDs shows something. But that's just my humble opinion...
Absolutely agree.
I think the organization would have to tread carefully about calling itself a university and be clear and upfront with students about the value they are getting. Corporate sponsorship would help. If corporations are willing to hire individuals "graduated" from the programs, then that's all that really matters in the end.
The important part would be not to make any compromises to the students or faculty for the sake of the government, and stay under their radar or even out of their country!
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