My friend's little sister has recently been diagnosed with ADHD and since I'm naturally skeptical of everything, I fail to see how such a diagnosis can be valid. My friend's parents are usually pretty busy and all their kids have been pretty wild when they were my friend's sister's age. I also noticed that when my friend's sister was younger she kinda emulated the behaviour of her older siblings. His sister also got diagnosed with Tourette's Syndrome. However, my friend swore a lot when I was with him when we were younger, and since I think his sister was emulating him from early-on, that might be related, just as some children think it is funny to say "poop". I pointed out that I was very skeptical of the diagnosis and said that her behaviour was probably due to bad parenting and bad role models (my friend, when he was younger). He called me a "loony" and said I knew nothing about anything, and that makes me a loony.
I however, was only trying to be honest, since a misdiagnosis can be a very bad thing.
Now, to my main point. You're all smart people here, except for some bad apples. ;) So... What do you think about ADHD, does it exist? Are the diagnosis any good when it comes to it? What do you guys think? What evidence can I look at? How can I convince my friend to not accept the diagnosis out of hand?
I believe that it exists. A cousin of mine is the textbook case for someone who had suffered from ADHD. Many people have told me that they or people they know are afflicted with AD(H)D, but they use it more as an adjective to describe the person instead of as an actual medical condition. My belief is that it is a neurochemical/neurological disorder that results in severe symptoms of the disease. There might be a spectrum of "severe" to "mild" or some such thing, but I don't doubt it's existence.
I know that I don't sound convincing, and even borderline contradictory, but I believe it is possible that people just use it as a hand-wavy way of saying that a person suffers from a short attention span.
The appeal to "charity" is a truly ironic one. First, it is hardly "charity" to take wealth by force and hand it over to someone else. -Rothbard
It's real - but she may or may not have it.
If you're interested in the subject, get the book "Driven to Distraction." Written my 2 psychiatrists, one who has it.
I don't believe it exists. People are unique and display a range of personality traits and behaviors. It's just that in our society, behaviors and traits outside the "norm" are pathologized. Suddenly, an intelligent kid who is distracted and can't keep still during a boring, dumbed down class in a public school, is "disordered."
Now, I don't dispute that hyperactivity exists in some children. But I don't think it's a disorder. Excess sugar, and stuff like artificial colorings can cause hyperactivity too.
It's possible to have it, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thing. Maybe it is just that state education is boring to her. Also, one of the guys on Shark Tank said he has ADHD, yet he found a way to get notes to people who have trouble taking notes in class. http://www.notehall.com/
My favorite online shop: www.cafepress.com/libertyphile
"My friend has it" is not a valid argument, I'm looking for reliable science and viewpoints. Not "my friend has it".
Arvin: "My friend has it" is not a valid argument, I'm looking for reliable science and viewpoints. Not "my friend has it".
I agree with you, which is why I didn't say "my friend has it". Why don't you ask the people who diagnosed your "friend's little sister"? I'm sure they are qualified.
EDIT:
Btw, why did you say this if you wanted a valid argument?:
"What do you think about ADHD, does it exist? Are the diagnosis any good when it comes to it? What do you guys think? What evidence can I look at? How can I convince my friend to not accept the diagnosis out of hand?"
Obviously we're not experts on ADHD. Next time, ask us about economics and political science.
It exists.
I had some big exams coming up once and I tried convincing my parents that I had ADD to score some Ritalin.
DarkCatalyst:I don't believe it exists. People are unique and display a range of personality traits and behaviors. It's just that in our society, behaviors and traits outside the "norm" are pathologized. Suddenly, an intelligent kid who is distracted and can't keep still during a boring, dumbed down class in a public school, is "disordered."
The idea that it doesn't exist because "people are unique" doesn't make much sense to me. People just aren't that unique, when you speak to a normal person you can generaly anticipate the way they're going to reply to certain extent. I knew a kid who had ADHD a while ago, whilst he was relatively normal when he was on his meds when he came off them he simply didn't behave like other people.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
Nor does a recluse. Should we medicate hermits?
Keynes must've been a fan of Brave New World; why else would he write a book about its economics?
ADD and ADHD is a disease which states that certain human behaviors are irrational. It argues that Human preference can be flawed and that certain individuals personal preferences or judgments are in error and need to be corrected. The science behind the disease is 100% based on human behavior and patterns of behaviors. Even MRI scans monitoring activity of the brain are nothing more then behavioral traits of that person.
ADD at the core is anti-individualistic. It follows a school of physiological thought that individual preferences and opinions can be flawed and that a small body of individuals knows whats best for those individuals. The foundation of ADD is borderline collectivist. The notion that all men were designed to think exactly the same way and that there are supposedly "wrong" ways of thinking about things and "Wrong" ways of learning. The science has been effortlessly looking for brain patterns for nearly two decades. The concept believes that man should have similar preferences, opinions, and behaviors. These group individuals must decide for society what is the most desirable human behavior and what is consider the least desirable. Rather then allowing free-market to decide what behaviors are in demand these individuals decide for us.
The very idea of their being a mental disorder like ADD/ADHD brings up the following questions.
Environment when Diagnosed
Another complication on the subject of ADD is the environment in which it is most likely to be diagnosed. The idea is that people who find it difficult to remain silent still for 8 hours a day are an error when in the environment of an institutionalized system like public schools. The concept argues that being in school is natural to human behavior and is normal and that any form of acting or desire to be outside of school is unnatural and in-human. ADD/ADHD typically gets diagnosed in these types of situation. People who learn kinetically tend to have the largest problems.
This can happen at startling young ages. 6 year old boys are expected to remain still for a full day while at school. It is believed that if they cannot they are in error and have a disease. 100 years ago this was not the case. Boys did not sit still, they worked with their father on the farm. So it is hard to say if this emergent disease is an error in human behavior or an error in human expectations.
In a small note I'd like to point out that while it may not have been intended, ADD/ADHD is also an excuse to be used for a bad teacher. That is a whole other topic however.
Existence
If ADD is an acknowledged existence of a certain set of behavioral traits then it can most certainly be said to exist. It exists every bit as much as red haired people. The disease wants to classify a body of people to further help them. It is a wonder however that society has not created a "Your too short disease"or "Your too tall disease". The disease is created on an arbitrary set of behaviors, generally ones that do not cooperate well in a classroom setting. The proponents of ADD argue that these behaviors are wrong. They do not acknowledge that in a different setting the behavior may actually be advantageous. So it is true, there probably is an arbitrary pattern of thinking amongst various people inherited through genes or learned from behavior when being raised.
ADD is just as real as some people have floppy ears, or hairy legs. It is however is mis-labled. First off an alternative way of thinking is not a deficiency at all. Whats wrong typically is the setting that the individual is attempting to learn in. In a free market a parent could quickly and easily change th education setting of the child. In today's world the only choice a parent has is to change them from one government institute for another. It's no wonder why the problems continue to occur.
Behavioral traits exist in all of us. We have these simply from learning them or inheriting them in our genes. These behaviors are not necessarily wrong. The individual needs to be aware of his/her strengths and weakness's. A smart individual would not stifle his strengths to accommodate his weakness's, rather he would exploit his strengths to bring about success. In addition, if the individual knows of a weakness and facing that weakness is inevitable then he can deal with it on his own terms. Most individuals who do not take drugs will train themselves in a highly efficient manner how to get around their weakness's. It may be an alternative way of listening, learning, watching, talking, or whatever. However when the behavior is learned individualistically they benefit from it for a lifetime. However, if the person participates in chemical stimulants to mask the deficiency they are then tied to that drug for a lifetime and the drug does not necessarily benefit their strengths. In fact, more often then not, the drug has a negative effect on the persons strengths.
There is no attention deficit, there is only lack of interest and an alternative personal preference which no man has a right to judge. It cannot be said that our current state of education offers various choices for learning types and learning content. Most education is universal and even private firms must meet the mandates of the state for them to "legally" educate. As if the state knows exactly what should or should not be taught. As a result certain people with specific weakness's and specific strengths have a hard time in their educational career. However some of them prosper thereafter.
The State
The concept of ADD/ADHD over the past 10 years has been most widely encouraged by the state through the public education system. The relationship between drug companies and the FDA is a questionable one at best. There are several cases where a public school has threatened to bring in child protection agency's should parents not comply in drugging their children. I plan on doing much more research in this section but it is not my most knowledgable one now.
For now I'd say t hat if ADD/ADHD were real there would be no need for the state to intervene to enforce it.
Parallel Story
What if the state decided that in order for you to pass high school and be successful in the real world, or go to college, you must be able to run the 1 mile in less then 6 minutes. Lets say that the final test for high school is running the one mile in less then 6 minutes. Lets say you are tall and lankey, you can jump very high but cannot run for very long. A small group of people who speak for society state that you and your muscles have been formed in retardation. They state they you are 'disabled' and your errors need to be corrected by using steriods. Steriods will help you run the mile like 'normal' students but you will loose your ability to jump high.
You can either learn to run the mile on your own merits, or take the drug. For simplicyt however lets say that the drug will have a lifelong effect and you will loose your ability to jump ever again.
Lets say you take the drug, graduate from highschool, and the first job ad you see is one looking for someone who can jump very high.
My story is very ridiculous but it parallel's the ridiculousness that having different behavior traits make you 'disabled' in the sense that you do not think correctly.
I'll be writing a book about this next year, and would you believe it, I'll be using alot of material from Mises's Human Action. Especially the first several chapters on praxeology.
In addition I've done close to a years worth of scientific research regarding tests which supposedly prove the existence of ADD. All it actually proved was that there is a pattern of behaviors for certain people. Not that those behaviors are bad or wrong as they are incapable of doing so. Most of their tends end with raising more questioning then answering, in fact some of their tests plainly say so. However the FDA felt compelled to pass this drug and people who trust their government have gone along with it.
I have countless of personal experiences, being an ADD/ADHD person, of which I could share which refutes the idea that a deficiency' exists at all but those experiences arn't entirely relevant. Whats relevant is a small body of people cannot determine for others what is considered good behavior or bad.
I believe that in a free society you probably wouldn't have things like ADD/ADHD. What you'd have instead are alternative schools which cater to different interests, activities, and behaviors.
This video has got a few nice ideas. (Look below)
larry lessig says the law is strangling creativity.html
[EDIT]
I just realized the video I linked above is really irrelevent to my point. I got my vids confused. INSTEAD, the video I meant to post was this one.
ken robinson says schools kill creativity.html
Statism is a religion.
GilesStratton:The idea that it doesn't exist because "people are unique" doesn't make much sense to me.
it exists just the same as blonde people exist, but we do not medicate them.
The concept of ADD/ADHD is akin to planning an economy. The concept that a small body of people know what behaviors are best for society.
If the state or a small body of "experts" said that being blonde was a deficiency should we medicate them as such?
scineram: It exists.
Great post.
From Human Action
Mises: There is no standard of greater or lesser satisfaction other than individual judgments of value, different for various people and for the same people at various times. What makes a man feel uneasy and less uneasy is established by him from the standard of his own will and judgement, from his personal and subjective valuation. Nobody is in a position to decree what should make a fellow man happier.
There is no standard of greater or lesser satisfaction other than individual judgments of value, different for various people and for the same people at various times. What makes a man feel uneasy and less uneasy is established by him from the standard of his own will and judgement, from his personal and subjective valuation. Nobody is in a position to decree what should make a fellow man happier.
Mises: Materialist monoism contends that human thoughts and volitions are the product of the operation of bodily organs, the cells of the brain and the nerves. Human thought, will, and action are solely brought about by material processes which one day will be completely explained by the methods of physical and chemical inquiry. This too is a metaphysical hypothesis, although it supporters consider it as an unshakable and undeniable scientific truth.
Materialist monoism contends that human thoughts and volitions are the product of the operation of bodily organs, the cells of the brain and the nerves. Human thought, will, and action are solely brought about by material processes which one day will be completely explained by the methods of physical and chemical inquiry. This too is a metaphysical hypothesis, although it supporters consider it as an unshakable and undeniable scientific truth.
And the final bullet
Mises: But as long as we do not know how external facts-physical and physiological-produce in a human mind definite thoughts and volitions resulting in concrete acts, we have to face an insurmountable methodological dualism.
But as long as we do not know how external facts-physical and physiological-produce in a human mind definite thoughts and volitions resulting in concrete acts, we have to face an insurmountable methodological dualism.
GilesStratton: I had some big exams coming up once and I tried convincing my parents that I had ADD to score some Ritalin. DarkCatalyst:I don't believe it exists. People are unique and display a range of personality traits and behaviors. It's just that in our society, behaviors and traits outside the "norm" are pathologized. Suddenly, an intelligent kid who is distracted and can't keep still during a boring, dumbed down class in a public school, is "disordered." The idea that it doesn't exist because "people are unique" doesn't make much sense to me. People just aren't that unique, when you speak to a normal person you can generaly anticipate the way they're going to reply to certain extent. I knew a kid who had ADHD a while ago, whilst he was relatively normal when he was on his meds when he came off them he simply didn't behave like other people.
What's "normal"?
Anyway, thanks for the post filc. I also have a lot of ADD/ADHD traits and am an ENTP Myers-Briggs personality type. Unfortunately, I'm probably not as well adjusted as other people after two decades of being told that who I am is "wrong". I also found this link helpful:
http://borntoexplore.org/whatisadd.htm
DarkCatalyst:Anyway, thanks for the post filc. I also have a lot of ADD/ADHD traits and am an ENTP Myers-Briggs personality type. Unfortunately, I'm probably not as well adjusted as other people after two decades of being told that who I am is "wrong". I also found this link helpful:
I owe it all to my Dad. He fought off my school, counselors, and tons of threats by all sorts of people to keep me from getting drugged before I could make my own decision. Ironically, I am probably the most successful person in my class, one who had the most severe case of ADD(Seriously not being cocky).
As for rebuilding my confidence in myself. I never really took the school seriously, my Da wouldn't let me. However it was Fountainhead which really confirmed my confidence. If you haven't read it yet please do so!
Also, watch that video I posted above!!!
Thanks for the post DarkCatalyst.
Very well-done and thorough critique, filc. I've always been skeptical of so-called psychological disorders in general, and so it was very interesting to read your side of it (as someone who's been diagnosed ADD). You mentioned quoting Mises on praxeology, though, and it might be hard to use it in a correct context... praxeology isn't meant to analyze psychology, just action as such (in other words, it might weaken your argument to readers).
I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
ThankS Justin.
I actually posted the wrong video above. The one I posted was more aimed at IP laws. Instead here is a more relevant video regarding the topic at hand.
I'd be more concerned if they were diagnosed as a socialist.
To darkness I condemn you...
Arvin:"My friend has it" is not a valid argument, I'm looking for reliable science and viewpoints. Not "my friend has it".
There is a specific set of symptoms that exists characterized by hyperactivity and attention defecit problems, usually occurring together at the same time, so yes it does exist to that extent. It is very real. Whether or not any individual case is merely the result of boredom or a genetic disposition or a chemical imbalance or some other cause is something that has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Causes aren't really known in general. There might be a consistent etiology for a number of cases, it's not known. So technically I guess it can't be disease, but it's certainly an indentifiable set of specific symptoms that can be spotted. Shrinks do try to differentiate between people who are just buzzed by nature and people for whom these behaviors are clinically excessive, well beyond what you'd consider just a normal person but a bit hyper and flighty. And while I do agree there's a tendency to try and turn everything that's not the norm in terms of behavior into some kind of medical condition, and yes some doctors would love to drug everyone into some half dazed normalcy, that doesn't mean mental illnesses don't exist.
What you need is either a qualified second or third opinion, maybe from a psychologist as a opposed to a psychiatrist if that's the case here, because a psychologist, not depending on drug prescriptions for his livelihood to an extent, might be less inclined to diagnose a condition as something that might require meds. Or, if you trust yourself, then ask yourself, is this girl truly beyond the edge of normalcy? Does she want to be normal but simply can't seem to control herself? And I say this from experience, having been diagnosed with ADHD myself once. But, after seeing the psychiatrist I went to a psychologist and he said yeah it's possible, let's work on behavior modfication first though. The discipline necessary to not do impulsive things, or to keep my attention on something sometimes, is frigging ridiculous. I can do it, but damn it's a pain sometimes. Plus it leads to mental fatigue and even physical fatigue because of the levels of self control I have to exert. So a lot of times, and especially after work, I'm fried to the point of exhaustion even though my day wasn't particularly 'hard' by any measure.
But, since I'm in HR, I also get to deal with new stuff and meet new people a lot, so it eases the effort sometimes. It's not every job in which you get to interview people and see their peculiarities laid bare, like one guy interviewing for a solid 45 minutes and apparently not realizing or caring that he spent most of that time adjusting his balls to and fro. Or seeing an old guy sneeze and blow his uppers out onto the table. That was classic.
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