laminustacitus:And you have no faith whatsoever?
Are you irrational for not bowing to the consensus of college professors when it comes to economics.
Would Keynes be correct if 100% of the world believe him?
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Juan: laminustacitus:And you have no faith whatsoever? I don't think so. At least, I don't believe in patently absurd things.
So you expect me to believe that you have absolutely no faith in your moral convictions. Do you not have faith that the "patently absurd things" do not exist?
Juan:Are you irrational for not bowing to the consensus of college professors when it comes to economics. No, I'm rational for not bowing to the nonsense the establishment preaches.
What is "the establishment"? If your beliefs are "the establishment" are you still against "the establishment"?
I am becoming a Burkean Whig.
- F.A. Hayek
So you expect me to believe that you have absolutely no faith in your moral convictions.
Just for you, Juan
Eris
Juan:So you expect me to believe that you have absolutely no faith in your moral convictions. Right. My moral convictions are rational, not based on faith.
I highly doubt that. I highly doubt you can give a rational argument for every single one of your beliefs without the need for belief whatsoever.
Juan:If you can prove that organized religion is not a pack of lies, go ahead. Otherwise...
And you have faith that they are a pack of lies - you have a faith that, unless proven otherwise, a belief should not be held.
Juan: laminustacitus: Juan:I'm rational for not bowing to the nonsense the establishment preaches. What is "the establishment"? If your beliefs are "the establishment" are you still against "the establishment"? Not sure what your point is. Do you have any ?
laminustacitus: Juan:I'm rational for not bowing to the nonsense the establishment preaches. What is "the establishment"? If your beliefs are "the establishment" are you still against "the establishment"?
Juan:I'm rational for not bowing to the nonsense the establishment preaches.
That you are a provocateur who stands on unstable ground.
Juan:Pathetic, Lam. Show that the lies of your church are true...if you can.
Don't switch the subject once you've been cornered.
Juan:No. The problem is that YOU changed the subject. So, show that your absurd 'religious' beliefs are rational - Please, you don't change the subject.
No, Juan, what I am saying is that human reason has a limit, and that a basic result of that is that many of our ethical, moral, and religious beliefs must be founded on faith. The atheist has faith that God does not exist just as a Christian believes that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on Easter. In fact, the entire thesis that all beliefs must be supported by evidence is circular for where does that thesis emerge from, but a commitment of faith?
No, Juan, what I am saying is that human reason has a limit,
The atheist has faith that God does not exist just as a Christian believes that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on Easter.
In fact, the entire thesis that all beliefs must be supported by evidence is circular for where does that thesis emerge from, but a commitment of faith?
Juan:No, Juan, what I am saying is that human reason has a limit, That's why I'm an agnostic, not an atheist - but I don't think the limits of human reason are the problem here.
Agnosticism is based on faith just like atheism; the entire question of faith with respect to the existence of God is unavoidable, and the question of faith is an inquiry as to the limits of human knowledge, and hence reason.
Juan:Human reason does work when used to debunk revealed religion.
No it does not. One cannot rationally prove that Jesus Christ never rose from the dead. All that reason can do is give reasons for not believing it, and vice versa.
Juan:In fact, the entire thesis that all beliefs must be supported by evidence is circular for where does that thesis emerge from, but a commitment of faith? I never said that all beliefs must be supported by evidence.
It was a preemptive refutation of the thesis that all beliefs must be supported by evidence therefore showing that there are certain beliefs that can only be supported by faith.
Juan:Also, I don't see how the thesis that all assertions must be somehow proven has anything to do with faith.
Ever read William Clifford's "The Ethics of Belief", or James William's "The Will to Believe." The thesis has great relevance not only to the question of faith over the question of whether, or not it is moral to base beliefs on faith, but also to the question of what beliefs can even be supported by evidence, and what are the ones that are a matter of faith.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/scientific%20progress%20graph/Arthur_Vandelay99/DarkAges.gif
Agnosticism is based on faith just like atheism;
One cannot rationally prove that Jesus Christ never rose from the dead.
All that reason can do is give reasons for not believing it, and vice versa.
Juan,
Can you prove that I exist beyond Cartesian doubt or do you believe on the grounds of sufficient reason that I do?
The atoms tell the atoms so, for I never was or will but atoms forevermore be.
Yours sincerely,
Physiocrat
Juan: Are you irrational for not bowing to the consensus of college professors when it comes to economics. No, I'm rational for not bowing to the nonsense the establishment preaches.
All the statists and Keynesians will look up and shout "Save Us!" and I'll wisper "No."
Juan:That's why I'm an agnostic, not an atheist
AFAICT, the only difference between an "agnostic" and an "atheist" is the former doesn't like to be called the latter.
laminustacitus:So you expect me to believe that you have absolutely no faith in your moral convictions. Do you not have faith that the "patently absurd things" do not exist?
laminustacitus:No, Juan, what I am saying is that human reason has a limit, and that a basic result of that is that many of our ethical, moral, and religious beliefs must be founded on faith. The atheist has faith that God does not exist just as a Christian believes that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on Easter.
Physiocrat:Can you prove that I exist beyond Cartesian doubt or do you believe on the grounds of sufficient reason that I do?
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