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Critique time!

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:52 PM

liberty student:
Forced liquidation of his assets via authority provided by an arbitrator of his contract with his clients.  Possibly a lien on future income.

First you have to fight his PDA which would be better funded since all the suckers are broke.

liberty student:
Sure they were victims.  They were victims of fraud.  Libertarians, the ones who understand property rights at least, know that fraud is a form of theft.  Madoff was a scam artist.  He cheated his clients, and thus they are ...  ba ba ba baaaaaah!  Victims of fraud!  Tada!

Who's responsibility is it when you invest your money?

 

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:54 PM

nirgrahamUK:

He said Hoppe held Mises in high esteem..........

That makes more sense, regardless, the highest admiration does not give one the ability to speak for another.

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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Angurse replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:58 PM

Poptech:
That makes more sense, regardless, the highest admiration does not give one the ability to speak for another.

Hmm Who claimed Mises refuted anarcho-capitalism again?

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Poptech:
First you have to fight his PDA which would be better funded since all the suckers are broke.

No, a PDA might not even be necessary, as it is basic contract arbitration.  PDAs may be required to enforce the arbitration judgment.  But it is unlikely that Madoffs PDA would protect him if an arbitrator of his choosing found him in violation of contract.  The firm would have nothing to gain, and everything to lose.

Poptech:
Who's responsibility is it when you invest your money?

That's irrelevant when contracts are concerned.

See, this is what I am talking about.  Instead of trying to be an obstinate gadfly, you should be versed on these topics.  Instead of commenting on Hasnas before reading Hasnas, maybe you should actually read the paper on polycentric law.  Then, if you still want to maintain a bad position on some of these ideas, at least you can ask more informed questions.

Right now, this level of discourse is very low for someone with several hundred posts on this forum.

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:11 PM

Angurse:
Who claimed Mises refuted anarcho-capitalism again?

You cannot have anarcho-capitalism without the anarcho.

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:15 PM

liberty student:
No, a PDA might not even be necessary, as it is basic contract arbitration.  PDAs may be required to enforce the arbitration judgment.  But it is unlikely that Madoffs PDA would protect him if an arbitrator of his choosing found him in violation of contract.  The firm would have nothing to gain, and everything to lose.

Why would Madoff agree to arbitration? Why would Madoff not choose an arbitrator that agrees with him? Why would Madoff's own personal PDA not protect him? He pays them. The PDA firm has everything to lose by not protecting him as Madoff is the only one paying them.

liberty student:
That's irrelevant when contracts are concerned.

In an anarcho-capitalist society there is no one to enforce contracts, let alone "fraud".

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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GilesStratton:
OK, how about "I ate meat"? Did I eat all the meat that has ever existed?
That's an answer to a specific question or a statement about what you ate, not how much. When you're talking about protecting rights--it's all-inclusive.

Now then, does your stupidity know some bounds?

 

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Angurse replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:17 PM

Poptech:
You cannot have anarcho-capitalism without the anarcho.

False.

Voluntaryism, panarchy, nonarchy, agorism, lessarchy, polycentric law, pure capitalism, private-law society...

In fact most anarchists do not consider to be a form of anarchy at all.

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Knight_of_BAAWA:
Unqualified means all.
Poptech:
Not in the context he wrote it in which was a generality not definitive.
No, it was definitive.

Now I'm seriously suggesting to you that you end your trolling. Actually, think of it more as a directive.

 

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:19 PM

Angurse:
False.

Really? Then what does "anarcho" mean?

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:21 PM

Knight_of_BAAWA:
No, it was definitive

Now you are lying, Giles already said it was not.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Now I'm seriously suggesting to you that you end your trolling. Actually, think of it more as a directive.

Calling comments you don't like trolling doesn't make them so and the constant moderator intimidation of thought is getting old.

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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Angurse replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:25 PM

Poptech:

Really? Then what does "anarcho" mean?

Its a misnomer, just read the FAQ.

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GilesStratton:
The entirety of this post is either not true or not relevant. No, for the most part the state won't stop you being broken into, but neither will a Mutual Defense Association.

The point is that if my rights are violated I have the opportunity to take my case to the authorities and they may give me restitution. How they do about doing it is not relevant. What matters is that the state will and can do it.

Where's my car, then. I had a 1988 Cadillac Brougham which someone or some people stole. Where. Is. It. The cops never found it. I never got restitution. Shit--the cops never even LOOKED for it, Giles.

And where's my restitution or peace of mind knowing that the thug who put a knife to my throat isn't going to be doing that to anyone anymore? Where is it, GIles? WHERE? Why did the city see fit to give the case to a detective who was retiring in 3 weeks?

Yeah...answer me those, GIles. Answer them well.

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Knight_of_BAAWA:
No, it was definitive
Poptech:
Now you are lying
No, Giles is backpedalling.

 

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Now I'm seriously suggesting to you that you end your trolling. Actually, think of it more as a directive.
Poptech:
Calling comments you don't like trolling doesn't make them so and the constant moderator intimidation of thought is getting old.
So's your trolling. bye-bye forever.

 

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Poptech replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:28 PM

Knight_of_BAAWA:
So's your trolling. bye-bye forever.

Nice lie.

"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises

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It's kind of sad that potentially interesting threads have to be ruined by over inflated egos and semantic games.

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Poptech:
Why would Madoff agree to arbitration?

Because if he didn't, an arbitrator could find for his opposite, and pursue judgment.  Besides, its likely the contract (in a private law society) would have arbitration written in.  He would have already agreed to it up front.

Poptech:
Why would Madoff not choose an arbitrator that agrees with him?

Well, he might.  But if he clearly violated the contract, then the arbitrator won't have any standing.  And again, the arbitrator would likely already be spelled out.

These questions are a little silly, and indicate to me you did not read Hasnas, when you made your criticism of his paper.

Poptech:
Why would Madoff's own personal PDA not protect him? He pays them.

A PDA that doesn't respect arbitration or contract, isn't a PDA that will have much business, is it?  I mean, what a silly question.  It's like asking why criminals don't move to SOMECOUNTRY in order to be protected when they commit crime.  Do you know any reputable, orderly, peaceful countries that protect criminals?

Poptech:
In an anarcho-capitalist society there is no one to enforce contracts, let alone "fraud".

Again, proof you did not read Hasnas.  And now it looks like you went and got yourself banned.

Shame.  I've invested a lot of time in trying to get you turned around.

 

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Angurse replied on Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:44 PM

Don't ban him, now he'll actually have an excuse for blatantly avoiding arguments.

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Snowflake replied on Sun, Oct 11 2009 7:57 AM

Wow I went to bed and this train-wreck kept on going.

If only the state had intervened to stop us from bantering on like this...

"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." ~Dream

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Saan replied on Sun, Oct 11 2009 10:52 AM

GilesStratton:
(for those of you who thought that most libertarians are anything but political partisans, here's your lesson).

Come on really?  He never answered questions, he just dodged.  Then he challenged the moderator.  He called him a liar, the mod had to follow through, pop-tec forced the decision.  Woops.  A lesson learned I guess.

 "...The post-totalitarian system contrives to force life into its most probable states...This system serves people only to the extent necessary to ensure that people will serve it

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