Snowflake:You're probably right. Tbh I'm doing the debate for my own sake. A lot of people think like them (though I daresay they are some of the good ones) and I'm interested in experimenting with this conflict between people like me and people like them.
That's alright I suppose. Although you could find sharper sticks to practice with. People who are going to argue honestly.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Poptech:He supports the actual definition of libertarian not your made up one.
I support the Rothbard/Kinsella/Hoppe/Rockwell version. I hear you are quite fond of the Bob Barr version. lol
Poptech:I've explained my own positions over and over and agree with Ludwig von Mises.
Yeah, the last time you posted that, I put it in a new thread for you. Good refutation in there from Hoppe via Nir.
liberty student:People who are going to argue honestly.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." ~Dream
liberty student:Yeah, the last time you posted that, I put it in a new thread for you.
So only opinions you agree with are allowed in the thread I posted? Or are you afraid of someone reading my post?
liberty student:I hear you are quite fond of the Bob Barr version
Yes which makes me an obvious neocon.
liberty student:Good refutation in there from Hoppe
Not at all, Hoppe cannot speak for Mises.
"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises
Poptech:So only opinions you agree with are allowed in the thread I posted? Or are you afraid of someone reading my post?
No, only on topic replies.
Poptech: liberty student:I hear you are quite fond of the Bob Barr version Yes which makes me an obvious neocon.
Actually, your support for Romney makes you a neocon. Your voting for Barr is just sad. Barr is a neocon. That's why Ron Paul wouldn't endorse him.
Poptech:Not at all, Hoppe cannot speak for Mises.
He doesn't claim to. But Hoppe was the editor of the Journal of Libertarian Studies, and is an esteemed member of LvMI. I'll take his interpretation of Mises over yours. Particularly since few people hold Mises in higher esteem than Hoppe.
Ha! As opposed to you, who said Mises refuted anarcho-capitalism.
Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même
These market versus monopoly questions are indeed cute. What you guys have yet to prove is that absent a state there will actually be a market in the production of security.
GilesStratton:How does the state not enforce property rights? If I get my house broken into, I can go down to the nearest police station and make a report. If I'm lucky the police will look into it and find whoever did it and consequently return my property. How is this not protecting property?
I'd say that it is, yet you are also being taxed. So the state really only protects property rights at the expense of property rights. To me that sounds like a pretty shitty deal.
LS, let's not turn this is into another personal drama. The same offer is open, as usual, if you have a problem with me send me a PM.
liberty student: They didn't stop you from being broken in to. And they are under no obligation to get restitution for you. So there is no property rights justice whatsoever under the state. Big deal, you made a report. Also, the state owns everything, including you, ala fee simple. So the entire discussion is moot. You don't own any property, your parents don't own any property. At any moment, the state can take 100% of your property, and you have no recourse except... bah bah bah baaaaaa! Yep, the state! You're a Hoppean, you know this
They didn't stop you from being broken in to. And they are under no obligation to get restitution for you. So there is no property rights justice whatsoever under the state. Big deal, you made a report.
Also, the state owns everything, including you, ala fee simple. So the entire discussion is moot. You don't own any property, your parents don't own any property. At any moment, the state can take 100% of your property, and you have no recourse except...
bah bah bah baaaaaa! Yep, the state! You're a Hoppean, you know this
The entirety of this post is either not true or not relevant. No, for the most part the state won't stop you being broken into, but neither will a Mutual Defense Association.
The point is that if my rights are violated I have the opportunity to take my case to the authorities and they may give me restitution. How they do about doing it is not relevant. What matters is that the state will and can do it.
Snowflake:Maybe you aren't joking about being a Keynesian Positivist
Or maybe I think there's more to Austrian economics that Misesian a priorism which is out of date as far as advances in economic methodology goes. Notice, I'm not making any statements about how economics should be done, I'm just saying that there exist a number of Austrian economics who would reject Mises' methodology.
liberty student:The Hoppeans miss you Giles. Your several thousand posts singing his virtues, and arguing with me when I disagreed, and now the shoe is on the other foot, and you're so self-righteous. lol
I had the wool pulled over my eyes by a second rate pseudo economist. I've learned my lesson though.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
Belief in monopolies enforced by law being more efficient than the market is also cute. If people are helpless stupid drones then yes, absent the state there will be no market for the production of security.
Oh but however will the market handle the production of shoes!
To darkness I condemn you...
GilesStratton:I had the wool pulled over my eyes by a second rate pseudo economist. I've learned my lesson though.
Accept responsiblity. You pulled the wool over your own eyes. You're still doing it.
GilesStratton:The entirety of this post is either not true or not relevant. No, for the most part the state won't stop you being broken into, but neither will a Mutual Defense Association.
Again, I never claimed anything about PDAs. You made a claim about the state. I have smashed it. The state has no obligation to provide restitution. Thus, there is no social contract for security.
GilesStratton:The point is that if my rights are violated I have the opportunity to take my case to the authorities and they may give me restitution. How they do about doing it is not relevant. What matters is that the state will and can do it.
No, they do not give you restitution. In most cases, lost property is not recovered. Madoff does not have to pay back the people he embezzeled. In fact, his victims will pay to support him in prison and the costs of his trial. It's insult added to injury.
State fail again.
You've read Hasnas. You know better.
liberty student:Particularly since few people hold Mises in higher esteem than Hoppe.
What? Are you serious? Is this the twilight zone?
GilesStratton:No, for the most part the state won't stop you being broken into, but neither will a Mutual Defense Association.
GilesStratton:The point is that if my rights are violated I have the opportunity to take my case to the authorities and they may give me restitution.
That's a big may. You're putting yourself in the position where you're asking the state to be the judge in its own case.
Same discussion. You have an unshakable faith in the possible good of the state. For further details see my last post which you left unanswered.
liberty student: No, they do not give you restitution. In most cases, lost property is not recovered. Madoff does not have to pay back the people he embezzeled. In fact, his victims will pay to support him in prison and the costs of his trial. It's insult added to injury. State fail again.
My bike was stolen, the police recovered it a week later. As for Madoff how would a PDA recover their money? Madoff's suckers were not "victims" unless you are a progressive.
Poptech: liberty student:Particularly since few people hold Mises in higher esteem than Hoppe. What? Are you serious? Is this the twilight zone?
Hunh? Do you even know the first thing about Hoppe?
Poptech:My bike was stolen, the police recovered it a week later.
My bike was stolen, the police didn't recover it a week later. Your point is?
Poptech:As for Madoff how would a PDA recover their money?
Forced liquidation of his assets via authority provided by an arbitrator of his contract with his clients. Possibly a lien on future income.
That's just spit-ballin, but it will do.
Poptech:Madoff's suckers were not "victims" unless you are a progressive.
Sure they were victims. They were victims of fraud. Libertarians, the ones who understand property rights at least, know that fraud is a form of theft. Madoff was a scam artist. He cheated his clients, and thus they are ... ba ba ba baaaaaah! Victims of fraud! Tada!
with the billions they steal the state can throw you some bicycles every now and then.
look, if its Christmas and the Mafia don hands out treats to the neighbourhood. and hands back some stuff that was stolen. suddenly they are 'the great leaders'
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
liberty student:Do you even know the first thing about Hoppe?
Are you telling me more economists hold Hoppe in higher esteem than Mises?
Poptech:Are you telling me more economists hold Hoppe in higher esteem than Mises?
He said Hoppe held Mises in high esteem..........
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