there is stiff competition isnt there?
Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000
People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
JackCuyler:Pfft. The USSR, hands down.
By what standard?
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Juan:anglo-americans are christian freedom fighters
Not the only ones. Hitler and his party were Christian Socialists fully backed by the Vatican, continuing the ancient German/Prussian tradition of Jewish genocide and crusades against non-believers and lesser races (mostly Slavic people).
If I hear not allowed much oftener; said Sam, I'm going to get angry.
J.R.R.Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Natalie: How can a movement have "power"?
How can a movement have "power"?
Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Do you know how much influence Israel and Zionism has over this country? I'm just gonna stop arguing if you sincerely meant that last statement I quoted.
"Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom." Soren Kierkegaard
liberty student: JackCuyler:Pfft. The USSR, hands down. By what standard?
By yours: "...the biggest, most violent, tyrannical, and indebted state in the history of man. "
Biggest: In square feet, the USSR was certainly the largest nation to ever exist. In terms of population, at it's demise, it was about the same size as the United States' now, though no where near China's or India's. In terms of influence on the word stage, the USSR was a member of the UN security council, a nuclear "super power" and was a participant, directly or indirectly, in virtually every military action in which the US participated since the USSR came to be.
Most violent: This should be a no-brainer. Stalin's regime alone killed somewhere between 3 and 60 million people, not counting WWII, various post-WWII invasions and famines.
Tyrannical: Is this even a question? I'm not saying the US is free, nor that any slave owner is better than any other, but clearly some slave owners are worse than others.
Indebted: This one, I guess, is up for debate. I'm of the thought that the USSR was so far in debt that it collapsed. The US is not there yet.
Libertyandlife: Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Do you know how much influence Israel and Zionism has over this country?
Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Do you know how much influence Israel and Zionism has over this country?
Ever heard about empires using supposedly powerful Jewish conspiracy propaganda to justify genocide and divert the masses from the real threat, i.e. the oppressive government? Just because many people in the US support Israel that doesn't mean that the government does. In fact, it might be quite the opposite.
Libertyandlife:I'm just gonna stop arguing if you sincerely meant that last statement I quoted.
I hate to break it to you, but much of the American (and British) establishment before the war was, among other nice things, openly antisemitic. and fascist Wealthy Americans sponsored Hitler's rise to power, companies like GM and Ford built the industrial base in Germany that would be used to conquer Europe and provided the means to exterminate the Jews and other undesirables. British and American governments also did everything to prevent Jews from escaping Europe - this is already after the Krystallnacht when it was already clear that it wasn't safe for them to remain there. And the State Department continued with this policy during the Holocaust - again, when they knew what was going on. So, if it's not ignorance, then what? Collaboration, maybe?
Moreover, US promised the Soviets to turn over the Nazi war criminals and spies for prosecution - but they didn't. Instead, they hid and, often with the help of the Vatican, transported them elsewhere. We're not talking about some Nazi spymasters working for the US against USSR. No, it's thousands of the Nazi intelligence and military personnel who formed CIA as well as intelligence services in other US allied countries, including Middle East and - hold it - West Germany (I've always suspected that the Munich massacre was too staged).
US didn't even support the US partition to create the state of Israel, Truman suggested it but the State Department was against it (the same State Department that did everything to trap the Jews in Europe, remember?) They only voted because the USSR and its allies did. However, next year, when Israel was attacked by the Arab countries, guess what the US did? They revoked the vote and slapped embargo on Israel. The only country that sent weapons to Israel was Czechoslovakia - the ally of the USSR. By contrast, the Arabs were trained by the British and led by the same Nazi officers that had served the genocidal Hitler's regime. And even after that, America give any aide to Israel until 1973.
If that what you mean by the powerful Zionism then I guess Hitler was a friend of Jews.
Ordinary Americans who lived in 1940s-1950s knew that US was hostile to Israel and even protested it, but the Orwellian propaganda machine rewrites history and unless you invest some time to find out the truth you'll fall victim to it. Just like the people in 1930s who actually believed that the Jews were a bigger threat to them than Hitler.
JackCuyler:Biggest:
I'm talking about the scope of the empire, including client states.
JackCuyler:Most violent:
I'm not talking just about the Americans sacrificed in wars, but the people killed in other countries, the people who have been killed with American weaponry, sanctions, and assistance to tyrannical regimes. Not to mention, dropping two nukes puts the US in its own class.
JackCuyler:Tyrannical:
Perhaps not domestically, but when it comes to foreign policy, it is hard to argue that there has been a more aggressive state in the last 200 years.
justinx0r:They supply groups like Hezbollah with all kinds of weapons, they are probably making a nuclear bomb (yes, they probably are - they'd be insane not to), they are a theocracy, and they want to spread their type of theocracy to other Islamic countries. Mahmoud is insane, the clerics are insane, and Khamenei is also insane.
You made sure to hit every Israeli talking point.
Natalie:companies like GM and Ford built the industrial base in Germany that would be used to conquer Europe and provided the means to exterminate the Jews and other undesirables
They built cars for foreigners? Oh the horrors!
JonBostwick:They built cars for foreigners? Oh the horrors!
Don't be naive. These factories were promptly converted for the military production. Much faster than it happened in the US. Do you think Hitler had Henry Ford's portrait in his office because he simply liked a good ride? Most of the German military machine was built by the American capital.
liberty student: JackCuyler:Biggest: I'm talking about the scope of the empire, including client states.
So am I. The Soviet Union and it's "client states" was bigger - from Poland to Azerbaijan to Cuba. Russia was bigger. The "client states" were more numerous and spanned more of the globe.
liberty student: JackCuyler:Most violent: I'm not talking just about the Americans sacrificed in wars, but the people killed in other countries, the people who have been killed with American weaponry, sanctions, and assistance to tyrannical regimes. Not to mention, dropping two nukes puts the US in its own class.
I'm not talking about Americans killed in wars either. Stalin's regime executed between 3 and 60 million of his own people. I tend to believe it's somewhere in the 30-35 million range. That's not counting the people that starved to death in a government forced famine. That's not counting the enemy soldiers killed in WWII, nor soldiers and citizens killed by Soviet invasions. Not to mention the people who have been killed with Soviet weaponry and assistance to tyrannical regimes. The two American nukes combined killed just under 1/4 million people. Almost three times that many (at least) were arrested and shot in the Great Purge.
liberty student: JackCuyler:Tyrannical: Perhaps not domestically, but when it comes to foreign policy, it is hard to argue that there has been a more aggressive state in the last 200 years.
Tyranny generally deals with domestic issues, but even talking about foreign policy, I really have to say the USSR and the USA are about even - they fought or financed almost all of the same wars, claimed new territory by force, and funded brutal foreign regimes.
Natalie: Libertyandlife: Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Do you know how much influence Israel and Zionism has over this country? Ever heard about empires using supposedly powerful Jewish conspiracy propaganda to justify genocide and divert the masses from the real threat, i.e. the oppressive government? Just because many people in the US support Israel that doesn't mean that the government does. In fact, it might be quite the opposite. Libertyandlife:I'm just gonna stop arguing if you sincerely meant that last statement I quoted. I hate to break it to you, but much of the American (and British) establishment before the war was, among other nice things, openly antisemitic. and fascist Wealthy Americans sponsored Hitler's rise to power, companies like GM and Ford built the industrial base in Germany that would be used to conquer Europe and provided the means to exterminate the Jews and other undesirables. British and American governments also did everything to prevent Jews from escaping Europe - this is already after the Krystallnacht when it was already clear that it wasn't safe for them to remain there. And the State Department continued with this policy during the Holocaust - again, when they knew what was going on. So, if it's not ignorance, then what? Collaboration, maybe? Moreover, US promised the Soviets to turn over the Nazi war criminals and spies for prosecution - but they didn't. Instead, they hid and, often with the help of the Vatican, transported them elsewhere. We're not talking about some Nazi spymasters working for the US against USSR. No, it's thousands of the Nazi intelligence and military personnel who formed CIA as well as intelligence services in other US allied countries, including Middle East and - hold it - West Germany (I've always suspected that the Munich massacre was too staged). US didn't even support the US partition to create the state of Israel, Truman suggested it but the State Department was against it (the same State Department that did everything to trap the Jews in Europe, remember?) They only voted because the USSR and its allies did. However, next year, when Israel was attacked by the Arab countries, guess what the US did? They revoked the vote and slapped embargo on Israel. The only country that sent weapons to Israel was Czechoslovakia - the ally of the USSR. By contrast, the Arabs were trained by the British and led by the same Nazi officers that had served the genocidal Hitler's regime. And even after that, America give any aide to Israel until 1973. If that what you mean by the powerful Zionism then I guess Hitler was a friend of Jews. Ordinary Americans who lived in 1940s-1950s knew that US was hostile to Israel and even protested it, but the Orwellian propaganda machine rewrites history and unless you invest some time to find out the truth you'll fall victim to it. Just like the people in 1930s who actually believed that the Jews were a bigger threat to them than Hitler.
Yes but that was 50 years ago. Have you ever watched the news and seen the bias against Palestine and for Israel? Are you oblivious to aid we give Israel? How AIPAC is the 2nd strongest lobbyist group? To the massacres and apartheid in Palestine? Your telling me George Bush is right for supporting Israel and Libertarians like Rothbard are ignorant for criticizing it? Are you a libertarian at all or pro state?
Libertyandlife:Yes but that was 50 years ago.
So Zionism wasn't "powerful" then? What makes you think things have changed?
Libertyandlife:Have you ever watched the news and seen the bias against Palestine and for Israel?
There're all sorts of lies and distortions.
Libertyandlife:Are you oblivious to aid we give Israel?
Have you looked at the aid to other countries, including traditional enemies of Israel? How about the US/EU/UN support for the PLO and various terrorist groups? Oops, I mean, "freedom fighters"?
Libertyandlife:How AIPAC is the 2nd strongest lobbyist group?
Only 2nd? I thought Jews control everything.
Libertyandlife:To the massacres and apartheid in Palestine?
Why is Israel responsible for what Hamas et al are doing?
Libertyandlife:Your telling me George Bush is right for supporting Israel
Is that George Bush from the family of Nazi collaborators? What makes you think he supported Israel? Because he said so and because the media said so?
Libertyandlife:Libertarians like Rothbard are ignorant for criticizing it
There's a big difference between criticizing and Elders of Zion line of thinking.
Libertyandlife:Are you a libertarian at all or pro state?
I'm not pro any state. But I don't like the way some very powerful people in the US empire are trying to make Israel - and the Jews, by association - a scapegoat for their imperialistic policies. If the history is any indication, it doesn't bode well neither for Israel nor for the world.
Natalie: Libertyandlife:How AIPAC is the 2nd strongest lobbyist group? Only 2nd? I thought Jews control everything.
No one is claiming that AIPAC = all Jews.
Is it really too much to ask that people don't employ collectivist arguments about races on this forum?
^Exactly, she's making assumptions on intentions that I'm not showing. Every reply has some obvious bias like that.
The question really is: Was Ahminejad mistranslated when he said there were no gays in Iran?
Natalie: Libertyandlife:Yes but that was 50 years ago. So Zionism wasn't "powerful" then? What makes you think things have changed? Libertyandlife:Have you ever watched the news and seen the bias against Palestine and for Israel? There're all sorts of lies and distortions. Libertyandlife:Are you oblivious to aid we give Israel? Have you looked at the aid to other countries, including traditional enemies of Israel? How about the US/EU/UN support for the PLO and various terrorist groups? Oops, I mean, "freedom fighters"? Libertyandlife:How AIPAC is the 2nd strongest lobbyist group? Only 2nd? I thought Jews control everything. Libertyandlife:To the massacres and apartheid in Palestine? Why is Israel responsible for what Hamas et al are doing? Libertyandlife:Your telling me George Bush is right for supporting Israel Is that George Bush from the family of Nazi collaborators? What makes you think he supported Israel? Because he said so and because the media said so? Libertyandlife:Libertarians like Rothbard are ignorant for criticizing it There's a big difference between criticizing and Elders of Zion line of thinking. Libertyandlife:Are you a libertarian at all or pro state? I'm not pro any state. But I don't like the way some very powerful people in the US empire are trying to make Israel - and the Jews, by association - a scapegoat for their imperialistic policies. If the history is any indication, it doesn't bode well neither for Israel nor for the world.
Zionism is obviously more powerful in the U.S, then they wouldn't have so much more of an advantage over Palestinians, and inhumane treatment of a population would not be so obviously ignored by the country supplying it. Of course the news lies about it, that's my point, why would they distort the media so much in favor of Israel? I NEVER called the PLO or any of these organizations freedom fighters. Don't ignore children being shot in the head just by pointing to these organizations. Are you telling me it's hamas who does the majority of damage? That is totally untrue. 2nd makes it much more powerful then anything else for such a small and distant country, for a group based on something foreign. When did I ever slant against jews? My best friend is a Jew, and is plenty against the Israeli state. I don't understand where your coming from for the second to last comment, your the one calling them ignorant by following the media. Israel is not the scapegoat in that region, Palestine is, and you obviously believe that to by your comments.
Natalie:Do you think Hitler had Henry Ford's portrait in his office because he simply liked a good ride?
Let me guess....because Henry Ford was his secret Nazi overlord?
Could it be the reason you accuse everyone else of believing everything to be a Jewish conspiracy is that you actually believe everything to be an anti-jewish conspiracy?
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