After talking to some anti-state anti-capitalists, there seems to be inconsistency with the definitions of key term (such as markets and competition) between the anti-capitalists and the Austrians. We both agree that the current socio-economic systems should be down away with, and they even go as far as to admit that socialism requires the state, but there seems to a disagreement as to what capitalism is. What some books or articles that explain anti-capitalist thinking. I know of Mises' book concerning this, but I am looking for books or articles from the anti-capitalists themselves. Thanks.
My favorite online shop: www.cafepress.com/libertyphile
Anything by Kevin Carson on economics, comes from an anti-capitalist POV.
That includes Organization Theory (of which I could only stomach a little) and his blog sponsored by the Google Corporation.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
one can personally dislike capitalism as one can dislike brocolli. that doesn't mean brocolli should be banned.
garegin: one can personally dislike capitalism as one can dislike brocolli. that doesn't mean brocolli should be banned.
Adding to the irony, the only reason any of the dissenters have had brocolli is because of capitalism. (Marginally freed market)
Daniel: After talking to some anti-state anti-capitalists, there seems to be inconsistency with the definitions of key term (such as markets and competition) between the anti-capitalists and the Austrians. We both agree that the current socio-economic systems should be down away with, and they even go as far as to admit that socialism requires the state, but there seems to a disagreement as to what capitalism is. What some books or articles that explain anti-capitalist thinking. I know of Mises' book concerning this, but I am looking for books or articles from the anti-capitalists themselves. Thanks.
Depends on who you mean by anti-state anti-capitalists, who range from free-market anarchists to the most vulgar Chomskybot.
Market anarchist, Linux geek, aspiring Perl hacker, and student of the neo-Aristotelians, the classical individualist anarchists, and the Austrian school.
wombatron:Depends on who you mean by anti-state anti-capitalists, who range from free-market anarchists to the most vulgar Chomskybot.
He means "free market" leftoids.
I mean someone who is anti state and anti capitalism. This actually refers back to the person who blamed the current crisis on free market neoliberalism and called Ron Paul a free market neoliberal. He said he would not replace the current economic system with anything. What he would do is eliminate the current system and, instead, change the human relationship so that there was no more competition (as defined by the anti-capitalists) and no more markets (as defined by the anti-capitalists).
He also went on to say that free markets can only exist because of the state; in that, the state opens up the markets, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, and that it is currently trying to it with Asia. That interventions into Cuba and the Philippines on behalf of politically connected business. He also said that the current crisis was not because of government intervention, because there was no government intervention, and that capitalism is doomed to fail. That the USA has been deregulating since Reagan and that big government is not a problem because it brings about healthcare and education to those who do not have it. That the elite supported the elimination of affirmative action because they were racist and did not want to pay for minorities' and poor people education and so on.
Furthermore, he went on to say that using a car until it no longer runs is anti-capitalist. That having a dinner at home with the family is anti capitalist.
In that case, Kevin Carson's The Iron Fist Behind the Inivisible Hand, Roderick Long's Corporations versus The Market, and Keith Preston's Free Enterprise: The Antidote to Corporate Plutocracy would be good places to start.
Scratch the above, the person you are talking to is a "social democratic anarchist" of the Chomskyan stripe; that is to say, not really an anarchist at all.
wombatron: Scratch the above, the person you are talking to is a "social democratic anarchist" of the Chomskyan stripe; that is to say, not really an anarchist at all.
You got any material on this?
Daniel: wombatron: Scratch the above, the person you are talking to is a "social democratic anarchist" of the Chomskyan stripe; that is to say, not really an anarchist at all. You got any material on this?
This is it off the top of my head. Not written from the POV of someone who holds such beliefs, though. EDIT fixed broken link
Also, "not an anarchist at all" is perhaps too harsh; "very confused and inconsistent anarchist" would probably be more accurate.
wombatron: Daniel: wombatron: Scratch the above, the person you are talking to is a "social democratic anarchist" of the Chomskyan stripe; that is to say, not really an anarchist at all. You got any material on this? This is it off the top of my head. Not written from the POV of someone who holds such beliefs, though. EDIT fixed broken link
What do you know about John Holloway?
Why do anti-capitalists hate capitalism? Because they think that we're in a capitalistic society. It's that simple.
This isn't capitalism, though. This is an oligarchial fascist corporate society. I mean, even back in the 1800s, we didn't have capitalism; if you think there was capitalism back then, you've never read Lysander Spooner. How could they say that the huge class differences we see are the result of capitalism? Especially since someone like Noam Chomsky or Michael Moore would be the first to admit that the government favors the really big, wealthy corporations! It's like with healthcare - everyone's saying that we need to increase government intervention and get rid of the free market system we have. Bullshit. We had a free-market healthcare system...before the 1960s. And it was the greatest in the world. Now we have the government in control of 65% of the healthcare and I remember reading somewhere that all the legislation in our healthcare system, when put together, is a couple of tons and is 21 ft high - does that sound like a free-market to you? Would the majority of us have HMOs if it weren't for the government passing the HMO Act of 1973??? Here's a revolutionary idea - maybe it's those things that makes our healthcare system suck rather than those evil insurance companies wanting a profit.
Big statists are idiots. I mean, they say they don't like insurance companies and yet they want a system where everyone is FORCED to have insurance!
Daniel: What do you know about John Holloway?
Not too much, other than knowing that he was involved with the Zapatistas. Is he who you were talking about? Doesn't seem like it would be from the wiki page...
Daniel: He also went on to say that free markets can only exist because of the state; in that, the state opens up the markets, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, and that it is currently trying to it with Asia. That interventions into Cuba and the Philippines on behalf of politically connected business.
He also went on to say that free markets can only exist because of the state; in that, the state opens up the markets, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, and that it is currently trying to it with Asia. That interventions into Cuba and the Philippines on behalf of politically connected business.
You might want to ask him where black markets and micro-transactions fit into all of this. Other than that he's just exemplifying his lack of independent thought.
wombatron: Daniel: What do you know about John Holloway? Not too much, other than knowing that he was involved with the Zapatistas. Is he who you were talking about? Doesn't seem like it would be from the wiki page...
The guy I had the conversation with is a follower of John Holloway. Apparently Holloway believes that we should stop participating in the capitalist system.
tangobob5000: Why do anti-capitalists hate capitalism? Because they think that we're in a capitalistic society. It's that simple. This isn't capitalism, though. This is an oligarchial fascist corporate society. I mean, even back in the 1800s, we didn't have capitalism; if you think there was capitalism back then, you've never read Lysander Spooner. How could they say that the huge class differences we see are the result of capitalism? Especially since someone like Noam Chomsky or Michael Moore would be the first to admit that the government favors the really big, wealthy corporations! It's like with healthcare - everyone's saying that we need to increase government intervention and get rid of the free market system we have. Bullshit. We had a free-market healthcare system...before the 1960s. And it was the greatest in the world. Now we have the government in control of 65% of the healthcare and I remember reading somewhere that all the legislation in our healthcare system, when put together, is a couple of tons and is 21 ft high - does that sound like a free-market to you? Would the majority of us have HMOs if it weren't for the government passing the HMO Act of 1973??? Here's a revolutionary idea - maybe it's those things that makes our healthcare system suck rather than those evil insurance companies wanting a profit. Big statists are idiots. I mean, they say they don't like insurance companies and yet they want a system where everyone is FORCED to have insurance!
Thank you for that. He says that the bailouts by government a simply an attempt to bailout capitalism. That it is big government that fixes capitalism.
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