Too bad Mises has been shown to be wrong on this, as he was on monopolies.
Correct, luckily we don't live in an Anarcho-capitalist society.
Only because little fascists won't allow them to come about, and won't allow - as Mises allowed for - secession down to the individual level. Seriously, get over your religious attachment to the state. If you want one, form one and leave anyone who doesn't out. Or else you're nothing but a fascist.
To darkness I condemn you...
Libertarian_for_Life:I think you misunderstand what private defense agencies would be for. They would be for capturing criminals that have performed a coercive action.
Who decides this? Why would a private security agency not do what I pay them to do in an anarchistic society?
Libertarian_for_Life:A private defense agency would not perform a coercive action against some else, even if paid, because they are responsible for their coercive actions just like any other individuals. If a private defense agency was performing a coercive action against an individual without cause, then the defense agency could be brought to an arbiter an charged for their crimes (unlike government officials).
What if the private defense industry has no morals? Who is the defense agency / arbiter? How is this created and funded?
Libertarian_for_Life:What would make the private defense agency listen to the arbiter you say? Well, if the agency did not listen to the arbiter, then no one would purchase from them again and they would get no more funding.
The private defense agency is funded by the Billionaire, they don't care if anyone else funds them.
Libertarian_for_Life:You could say that a rogue agency funded by only a madman billionaire (which btw sounds like a comic book story) could happen in this society. But I find it highly unlikely that an agency would throw away it's business reputation to reap the benefit of a short term payment from a madman (which btw would also harm every individual within the agency as well, because not one of them would be trusted for employment anywhere else)
If the Billionaire funds them long term and makes arrangements with them why could this not happen?
"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises
Jon Irenicus:Only because little fascists won't allow them to come about, and won't allow - as Mises allowed for - secession down to the individual level. Seriously, get over your religious attachment to the state. If you want one, form one and leave anyone who doesn't out. Or else you're nothing but a fascist.
Am I an neo-con, soft-communist or a fascist? I'm confused.
Are you for the forceful prohibition of voluntary attempts to set up an anarchist society and/or secede down to the individual level? At their root all the above ideologies idolise the state. So anyone would do. People whining about what hypothetical billionaires would supposedly do in some anarchist world when they have a monopoly over force to hijack right now strike me as funny.
Jon Irenicus:Are you for the forceful prohibition of voluntary attempts to set up an anarchist society and/or secede down to the individual level? At their root all the above ideologies idolise the state. So anyone would do.
If you are not able to reach your goal then your argument is flawed. The context in which Mises places the state is not "idolization".
Jon Irenicus:People whining about what hypothetical billionaires would supposedly do in some anarchist world when they have a monopoly over force to hijack right now strike me as funny.
This is a very real possibility. Billionaires do not have a monopoly over force right now, the State does which is granted these powers indirectly by the people not the one with the most money.
Mises refutes your idealistic notions.
"anarchists implied that all men without any exception will be endowed with perfect wisdom and moral impeccability"
Juan:Maybe you should take a look at this little pamphlet
Thank you Juan. I like Rothbard's introduction. I found your link did not work but I have now been introduced to a new website as well.
Molinari doesn't address the possibility of violant conflicts between security forces. There may of course be no need for violence.
I do take issue with what the laws are, what they will be, and how they will be commenced.
What if court A follows retributive justice. Court B practices just compensation. Court C follows a different system. Go on to say that there may be a situation in which the plaintiffs are from each one. Even if a man accused abides by the law of A and the accuser abides by the law of B, the matter of punishment becomes a dispute. I am very bad at giving examples, but I hope I impressing that one system of law would resolve such a situation. To have one system of law would require it to be scribed(it should be available to all in plain words). Would one system of law would fall under some sort of governance?
The key point I would like to make is that we can further reduce the size of government without infighting. I am in favor of the Dallas Accord.
Minarchists, and anarcho-capitalists hate the state. These two groups are both radicals. Rothbard has addressed this.
Individualism Rocks
Bank Run:Molinari doesn't address the possibility of violant conflicts between security forces.
Nor does he address what stops a much larger more well funded security force from coercive action against others.
Bank Run:The key point I would like to make is that we can further reduce the size of government without infighting.
I agree and have been calling for this but anarchists viciously attack limited government Libertarians as outright communists/fascists or neo-cons. When I saw this I realized why the libertarian movement has gotten nowhere. Now Mises is called a "Statist" and Ron Paul an "enabler or Murder" for his military service. The nonsense here from some is outright ridiculous.
Bank Run: Juan: LeFevre was yet another anarchist This has been linked here in the past, but it is a short read that all should really consider. Autarchy Versus Anarchy
Juan: LeFevre was yet another anarchist
This has been linked here in the past, but it is a short read that all should really consider.
Autarchy Versus Anarchy
Except, of course, that autarchy is also a word in common use with a completely different meaning (namely, absolute dictatorship). His argument against using "anarchist" applies much more forcefully to his chosen term (after all, his only problem with "anarchist" is that some people define it as anarchism plus some other stuff (socialism, etc.), which is not inherent in the definition. The dictionary definition of autarchy, on the other hand, is the polar opposite of what LeFevre means by it!)
Poptech:How are the private law enforcement agencies created and funded? What law are they enforcing? If you cannot answer the questions let me know.
Same question. Same fallacy. Stop crying.
Poptech: Jon Irenicus:Only because little fascists won't allow them to come about, and won't allow - as Mises allowed for - secession down to the individual level. Seriously, get over your religious attachment to the state. If you want one, form one and leave anyone who doesn't out. Or else you're nothing but a fascist. Am I an neo-con, soft-communist or a fascist? I'm confused.
Try all of the above
Bank Run: Anarchy means no rule
And how are the meek protected with a government which, by its nature, doesn't protect anyone except the biggest contributors. And even then...
Poptech:If you are not able to reach your goal then your argument is flawed.
How is that government only getting involved in life, liberty and property theory doing?
'It is difficult to imagine any normal person wishing to meet Marx for a third time.' - Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition
Bank Run:Minarchists, and anarcho-capitalists hate the state. These two groups are both radicals.
Minarchists are only radicals because they are Utopians. They believe it is possible to have a small monopoly state that doesn't violate personal liberty.
We know that in order to have a monopoly state of any size, personal liberty must be violated.
Minarchists are just like marxists, its the same sort of idealistic day dreaming about the absurd as the possible.
With the exception of a few demagogues, most ancaps acknowledge that there will be conflict in an anarchist society. That's why we demand anarchism. So that conflict can be resolved without monopoly interference.
Bank Run:Rothbard has addressed this.
One of my least favorite Rothbard articles. I'm very sympathetic to Friedman's arguments because they don't rest on emotionalism.
I hate appeals to authority, although it seems appropo that you are doing it (for the second time) in this thread.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Poptech:Neither, there is no logical reason something has to be "progressive".
Yes, there is, its that wich follows from given premises. What follows from an extremely limited government, more or less?
Poptech:What if the Billionaire lives in a former U.S. missile silo and only allows his trusted men to visit him? It would be impossible to "assassinate" him and he can conduct all his business over the Internet. Your plan is easily defeated.
Easily defeated? Check your premises, thats a really big "what if."Trusted men (who are being payed) being just one weak point I'll point out.
Poptech:So it impossible to keep people employed for money? Why would the rest of the world care what he is doing? Why would the whole world be in an anarchistic state?
You've changed the argument again. You will only get what you pay. The rest of the world would care what hes doing because hes trying to enforce laws making women property, etc... If he were use his military and dominate people then the world wouldn't be in an anarchistic state at all, so the state has easily been defeated.
Poptech:Correct, luckily we don't live in an Anarcho-capitalist society.
Or else we'd be at the mercy of billionaire goldminer svenghalis. Please don't act so childish, stick to the topic.
Laissez faire et laissez passer, le monde va de lui même
So would you or wouldn't you forbid the free association of individuals to arrange for their own affais sans a state? If so, you're the obstacle. If not, then this discussion is ultimately trivial. Seeing the State as the only way of providing defence, or whatever other service, is treating it like a god.
Yet it is available to them and yet many of them use it to their advantage.
No, he doesn't - in fact his treatment of anarchy is shallow compared to the rest of his work, and is written in ignorance (unavoidably) of works that post-date it treating of the subject. You merely wish for confirmation of your impetuous attachment to mummy state.
Poptech, I linked to these before. You should really read them. A six-part exchange between RC Hoiles and Mises.
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/comment.php?comment.news.2508
yeah i read the previous link you gave. it was interesting
"I used to see a mountain as a mountain.. Thereafter.. when I saw a mountain; lo! it was not a mountain.. yet now of final tranquillity: I see a mountain just as a mountain as I used to.." - Master Yuan; molon labe
Poptech: I. Ryan:pro-law anarchism That doesn't make any sense. Who decides the law? A majority? Who decides when the majority is reached?
I. Ryan:pro-law anarchism
That doesn't make any sense. Who decides the law? A majority? Who decides when the majority is reached?
protip: you must first understand something before you can refute it.
Here's what you're missing: polycentric law.
Mises could not have refuted anarcho-capitalism in its current conception because he did not address it. He instead took on lawless anarchism, which is something entirely different.
But you won't find all of the answers on this forum. I guarantee you that any objection you can make to polycentric law (e.g. the PDA's will battle in the streets!) has already been addressed, and in most cases refuted. Do not get stuck in the Ayn Rand minarchist trap - go do some reading on your own and come back when you have a new and original objection.
"Constitution worship is our most extended public political ritual, frequently supervised as often by mountebanks as by the sincere"-James J Martin
Paul:The dictionary definition of autarchy
It depends on which one you consult. I would say that calling it a variant of autocracy(absolute rule) and autarky(economic isolation) are definitions that don't follow the etymological nature of the word. Dictionary definitions can change. Under Wiki three definitions are given. Wikipedia has a nice article.
I would say that his argument against anarchism, has more to do with the historical nature of anarchists.
Knight_of_BAAWA:No ruler/government, not "no rule"government which, by its nature, doesn't protect anyone except the biggest contributors
an=without arkhe=ruler or ruled.
I am not a fan of defending government ever. But, I think there have been times when folks were saved from fires, and saved from abusive situations who were not big contributors.
I do believe that government is more likely to protect itself before it's own people though.
liberty student:Minarchists are just like marxists
Eh? I am yet to meet a minarchist who approves of dialectrical materialism. Or one who believes capitalism will destroy itself. Did I miss the Minarchist Manifesto?
Of course you would be lumping a lot of Austrian Economists into being Marxists. Hayek, Mises, Ropke, Hutt, Hazlitt, Fetter, Wicksteed, etc, etc.
I have seen you call minarchists utopians in response to anarchists being called utopians.
Why do you hate minarchists? Did a rogue gang of them disagree with you? Did they insult you?
I think we shall not see of which these two groups really is utopian, if they cannot work together to reduce the size of government to begin with.
Bank Run: Why do you hate minarchists? Did a rogue gang of them disagree with you? Did they insult you?
It's cute how innocent and harmless you want to make your beliefs sound. At least admit, without saying </i>anything<i> about the rightness or wrongness of minarchism, that it is a system which accepts (and often promotes) violence as necessary. Did they insult him? Maybe not. Do they lend moral credence to an organization that regularly extorts money from him with the threat of violence? Yes.
I have little respect for the common criminal, or his supporters. Nothing changes when he establishes a formal organization and puts on a suit.
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