I'm asking in the context of the last say, 400 years or so, since that's when Europe (and the US eventually) really started to take off.
In part I'm also asking, did imperialism give western nations a head start, or was it other factors such as economic freedom, trade, culture, etc.?
laminustacitus:Slavery disappeared in Europe itself, ignoring any influence ideologies played, because of the fact there was no economic use for slaves in Europe; the land was not organized in large plantations like in areas where slavery flourished. In addition, there is a strong correlation between nations that depended on slavery for economic reasons, and the length of time it took them to abolish the institution.
You're backwards. Because of slavery land was able to be organized into large plantations.
JonBostwick: laminustacitus:Slavery disappeared in Europe itself, ignoring any influence ideologies played, because of the fact there was no economic use for slaves in Europe; the land was not organized in large plantations like in areas where slavery flourished. In addition, there is a strong correlation between nations that depended on slavery for economic reasons, and the length of time it took them to abolish the institution. You're backwards. Because of slavery land was able to be organized into large plantations.
I never established causation; it is right looking at it from both perspectives.
I am becoming a Burkean Whig.
- F.A. Hayek
Lilburne: laminustacitus:From what I do understand, I would say that it is a baseless assertion seeing that Scholasticism thrived, all that the rise of empiricism would have necessitated is scholars becoming empiricists rather than Scholastics Every intellectual in the high middle ages was a scholastic. And the empiricism of the early modern age arose out of the intellectual tradition of the high middle ages. There was no foreign incursion of empiricist thinkers; it was a gradual process.
laminustacitus:From what I do understand, I would say that it is a baseless assertion seeing that Scholasticism thrived, all that the rise of empiricism would have necessitated is scholars becoming empiricists rather than Scholastics
Every intellectual in the high middle ages was a scholastic. And the empiricism of the early modern age arose out of the intellectual tradition of the high middle ages. There was no foreign incursion of empiricist thinkers; it was a gradual process.
Just because the empicism arose out of the Scholastic environment of contemporary Europe does not mean that it would have only arose out of those conditions.
Lilburne: laminustacitus:there is no reason why Caesaro-Papism would have impeded empircism. Isn't it curious that the Byzantine east (the study of which generated the very term "Caesaro-Papism) never made a serious general improvement in the sciences although it had the full benefit of surviving works of the Greek masters to work from for many hundreds of years before the Latin west did?
laminustacitus:there is no reason why Caesaro-Papism would have impeded empircism.
Isn't it curious that the Byzantine east (the study of which generated the very term "Caesaro-Papism) never made a serious general improvement in the sciences although it had the full benefit of surviving works of the Greek masters to work from for many hundreds of years before the Latin west did?
Just because there is correlation between scientific stagnation, and Caesaro-Papism does not mean that there was scientific stagnations because of Caesaro-Papism, we simply cannot establish that from historical analysis.There was a large amount of scientific progress under a powerful French state showing that if there is such causation, it is mild, and dependent on the individual state.
laminustacitus:Just because the empicism arose out of the Scholastic environment of contemporary Europe does not mean that it would have only arose out of those conditions.
It wouldn't have had to arise out of scholasticism per se, of course. But there are strong reasons to believe persistent progress toward truth requires intellectual independence from the central state and political fragmentation within cultural unity, which permits intellectuals to escape from persecution and re-establish themselves elsewhere. Both of these prerequisites were practically unique to Catholic west, and both were outcomes of the bizarre historical accident of the Catholic Church.
In the Afterword of Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond tells about how 15th century China
"sent treasure fleets, each consisting of hundreds of ships up to 400 feet long and with total crews of up to 28,000, across the Indian Ocean as far as the east coast of Africa decades before Columbus's three puny ships crossed the narrow Atlantic Ocean to the Americas' east coast."
This Chinese lead in exploration was ultimately squandered, however. Why? As Diamond explains,
"Seven of those fleets sailed from China between A.D. 1405 and 1433. They were then suspended as a result of a typical aberration of local politics that could happen anywhere in the world: a power struggle between two factions at the Chinese court (the eunuchs and their opponents). The former faction had been identified with sending and captaining the fleets. Hence when the latter faction gained the upper hand in a power struggle, it stopped sending fleets, eventually dismantled the shipyards and forbade oceangoing shipping."
He talks about how similar local political disturbances also happen in Europe, but...
"...in China there was a difference, because the entire region was politically unified. One decision stopped fleets over the whole of China. That one temporary decision became irreversible, because no shipyards remained to turn out ships that would prove the folly of that temporary decision, and to serve as a focus for rebuilding other shipyards."
Diamond goes on to characterize the ultimate failure of promising Chinese head starts in other exploratory, scientific, and technological endeavors as stemming from the same basic problem.
"These consequences of Europe's disunity stand in sharp contrast to those of China's unity. From time to time the Chinese court decided to halt other activities besides overseas navigation: it abandoned development of an elaborate water-driven spinning machine, stepped back from the verge of an industrial revolution in the 14th century, demolished or virtually abolished mechanical clocks after leading the world in clock construction, and retreated from mechanical devices and technology in general after the late 15th century."
If you were a Chinese genius, and your ideas fell out of favor in the imperial court, where could you go for your ideas to bear fruit, when almost the entire Chinese cultural world was under the same unified state? Nowhere. But the intellectual history of Europe is replete with stories of geniuses hopping from one competing kingdom or principality to another when things got too hot for them. The political fragmentation within cultural unity that made this possible was the product of the Catholic Church's checks on the local states and its culturally unifying aspects.
Of course with such theories, we are never dealing with apodictic certainty. But there is a high degree theoretical plausibility and empirical evidence supporting this view of history.
Human Action Comics Issues 1-6
Individuals having marginally more freedom and respect for private property in the West, in the past especially in the USA individuals exercised a lot more freedom, produced the Industrial Revolution and all the goodness that sprung from that. As governments consume individual freedom and lose respect for private property rights you see a slowing of the rate of progress of the West relative to the rest of the world. As individual freedom and respect for private property expand in East Asia, South America and the Pacific Rim, you will see these societies develop faster relative to the Western world.
laminustacitus:Slavery disappeared in Europe itself, ignoring any influence ideologies played, because of the fact there was no economic use for slaves in Europe; the land was not organized in large plantations like in areas where slavery flourished.
But why couldn't the landowners simply continue with the practice of forced labor on their lands like they did in the Roman and early medieval times?
There were also more prosperous (at the time) Islamic countries that didn't abandon slavery until what, 19th century?
laminustacitus:In addition, there is a strong correlation between nations that depended on slavery for economic reasons, and the length of time it took them to abolish the institution.
It certainly didn't happened overnight but I don't think there were any slave workers left in Europe by the 12th century (except maybe the port cities that used to trade with other places).
If I hear not allowed much oftener; said Sam, I'm going to get angry.
J.R.R.Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Natalie: laminustacitus:Slavery disappeared in Europe itself, ignoring any influence ideologies played, because of the fact there was no economic use for slaves in Europe; the land was not organized in large plantations like in areas where slavery flourished. But why couldn't the landowners simply continue with the practice of forced labor on their lands like they did in the Roman and early medieval times?
The Black Death certainly had a dramatic effect on feudalism, which was essentially a continuation of the Roman latifundia.
Natalie:There were also more prosperous (at the time) Islamic countries that didn't abandon slavery until what, 19th century?
I don't see how this is relevant.
Natalie: laminustacitus:In addition, there is a strong correlation between nations that depended on slavery for economic reasons, and the length of time it took them to abolish the institution. It certainly didn't happened overnight but I don't think there were any slave workers left in Europe by the 12th century (except maybe the port cities that used to trade with other places).
There was no economic need for slavery in the West after Rome, the agricultural reforms around the time of Caesar ensured that the latifundia had to employ Roman plebians rather than slaves, and this economic shift drastically reduced the economic utility of slavery.
liberty student:What is "the mentality of white people"?
That's a good question. It is basically the way White people think and henceforce act. One important key characteristic is the readiness to accept responsibility for once own fate and to plan and act accordingly. I think that this had the strongest influence on the advancement of the Western nations. Other characteristics are the ability to solve problems creatively. The respect for higher law. The mental capability to plan ahead, to think objectively and many more.
Shall I elaborate a bit on this issue?!
earthmoving
Torsten: That's a good question. It is basically the way White people think and henceforce act. One important key characteristic is the readiness to accept responsibility for once own fate and to plan and act accordingly. I think that this had the strongest influence on the advancement of the Western nations. Other characteristics are the ability to solve problems creatively. The respect for higher law. The mental capability to plan ahead, to think objectively and many more. Shall I elaborate a bit on this issue?!
Please do elaborate.
Also, do you feel that non-whites don't plan or accept responsibility?
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
liberty student: Please do elaborate. Also, do you feel that non-whites don't plan or accept responsibility?
Low IQ people have shorter time horizons and are more impulsive. If your society has a bulge in the IQ curve that's left of center, it's going to be a mess. A 'white' example of this is Britain, where most of the white population will be illiterate and living in lean-to's in about four generations.
Culture shapes breeding patterns, and after two generations of militantly egalitarian-welfare state culture, Britain's chickens are coming home to roost.
Byzantine: Low IQ people have shorter time horizons and are more impulsive. If your society has a bulge in the IQ curve that's left of center, it's going to be a mess. A 'white' example of this is Britain, where most of the white population will be illiterate and living in lean-to's in about four generations. Culture shapes breeding patterns, and after two generations of militantly egalitarian-welfare state culture, Britain's chickens are coming home to roost.
I buy arguments about IQ more than blanket arguments about skin tone. Certainly the Japanese can keep pace with any caucasian group I have seen in IQ studies. You are definitely onto something with the culture argument IMO.
People here actually take IQ tests seriously? IQ is a fictitious standard thats criteria is based off that of the opinions of a small set of physiologists. The standard however usually never reflects the skills currently demanded by the free market. IQ also does not test true competency and cannot measure "Real Performance" of any one individual. It sets a negative connotation against individuals with a more kinetic thinking process as those individuals who are often far more competent in various practical things are given the appearance that they are less competent, which the opposite is true.
IQ also fosters a culture that believes all people should think, understand, and comprehend in exactly the same way as the authors of the IQ test. It creates the immoral foundation for fictitious mental disorders which are nothing more then behavioral traits. A comparison would be, calling all redheaded children retarded.
If these guys who actually made IQ tests were truly competent or knowledgeable they wouldn't be making IQ tests at all, instead they would be employed in the open market making money rather than taking grant money working in a state run university somewhere. So again, we are back on the topic of praxeology. IQ tests pre-suppose what society deems valuable as a skill trait and dis-regards what the free market considers valuable as skill traits. It's an additional reason why public education is a failure; governments make these fictitious standards which normal people tend to be unable to stand up to, regardless of the individual’s competency.
If you really want to read up about real human competency I encourage you reading the following book. Highly valuable to managers. I don’t know what Thomas Gilbert’s political views are but at least in education and training he’s hit the nail on the head.
Human Competence: Engineering Worthy Performance
By Thomas Gilbert
Statism is a religion.
laminustacitus:The Black Death certainly had a dramatic effect on feudalism, which was essentially a continuation of the Roman latifundia.
Again, slavery was gone before the Black Death.
Latifundia existed in Italy and Spain, it has little to do with the rest of Europe. And 'feudalism' is a misnomer anyway.
laminustacitus: Natalie:There were also more prosperous (at the time) Islamic countries that didn't abandon slavery until what, 19th century? I don't see how this is relevant.
You named "prosperity" as the reason.
In any case, it should be obvious that slavery, like any severe restriction on free market exchanges, should slow economic growth.
liberty student:Certainly the Japanese can keep pace with any caucasian group I have seen in IQ studies.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Natalie:In any case, it should be obvious that slavery, like any severe restriction on free market exchanges, should slow economic growth.
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