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<?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="http://mises.org/Community/utility/FeedStylesheets/rss.xsl" media="screen"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/" xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"><channel><title>Back to the Drawing Board : The Non-Identity Problem</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx</link><description>Tags: The Non-Identity Problem</description><dc:language>en</dc:language><generator>CommunityServer 2008.5 SP2 (Build: 40407.4157)</generator><item><title>Generational Rights</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/05/05/generational-rights.aspx</link><pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 22:40:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:30948</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>66</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=30948</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/05/05/generational-rights.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;[Cross-posted on &lt;a target="_blank" href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;The conclusion that
we cannot infringe upon future people&amp;rsquo;s right by causing climate change may not
appeal to individuals who see injustice in the fact that by causing climate
change, the world we leave behind for future people could be substantially less
hospitable than it would have been if presently existing people had not caused
climate change.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;One might argue that
perhaps we do not infringe the rights of individual people by creating
dangerous or otherwise undesirable circumstances which are necessary conditions
for their existence, but we infringe the rights of &lt;i&gt;their generation&lt;/i&gt; by leaving behind a &amp;ldquo;spoiled&amp;rdquo; Earth.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;The appeal of this
notion is in the fact that a generation is simply the group of people who come
into existence during a particular period of time, and there is no requirement
for who exactly those people are.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;So,
for example, we may say that a woman, Charlene, is a member of some generation
A.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;If Charlene&amp;rsquo;s mother had conceived a
child with a different man than Charlene&amp;rsquo;s father, Charlene would never have
existed.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;But so long as the child was
conceived around the same time as Charlene was, that child would have also been
a member of generation A.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Because the
identity of the generation does not depend on the identities of its members,
one might see an opportunity for getting around the Non-Identity Problem by
focusing on what happens to generations instead of individuals under different
policy choices.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;So do future
generations have a right to inherit an unspoiled Earth?&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;For that matter, do future generations have
rights at all?&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;We may once again recall
that rights represent the respect to which we are due as individuals and as
ends-in-ourselves.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Because of the
inclusion of individuality as a part of our conception of rights, it might be
said that generations cannot possibly have rights, because they are not
individuals.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;But it seems reasonable to
say that to talk about respecting the individuality of a generation is only so
suggest that it should not be sacrificed for the interests of others&amp;mdash;namely,
other generations.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;One might point out
that other groups, like corporations or organized communities, can be seen as
&amp;ldquo;individuals&amp;rdquo; and &amp;ldquo;ends-in-themselves&amp;rdquo; in the sense that they are entities
which utilize means in the pursuit of their own distinct ends.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;These entities can be &amp;ldquo;benefited&amp;rdquo; and
&amp;ldquo;harmed&amp;rdquo; in a meaningful sense by impairing their ability to pursue their own
goods, and so it would not be &lt;i&gt;inconceivable&lt;/i&gt;
to suppose that these entities had rights of their own which were not simply
the sums of the rights of their members (whether they can truly be &lt;i&gt;disrespected&lt;/i&gt; is a separate and
controversial issue, which we will not address here).&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;It may be noted,
however, that generations do not seem to have an analogous &amp;ldquo;good of their own,&amp;rdquo;
and do not pursue their own distinct ends in any recognizable sense.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Any discussion of &amp;ldquo;the good of a generation&amp;rdquo;
seems like it could be nothing more than a vague statistical statement about
the good of its members.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Indeed, the
aforementioned groups can be seen as ends-in-themselves only through an
understanding of the way that they are &lt;i&gt;organized&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;In the way that a body is composed of organs
which have &lt;i&gt;functions&lt;/i&gt; in terms of the
good of the body, a corporation&amp;rsquo;s constituent parts are &lt;i&gt;organized&lt;/i&gt; to promote the ends of the corporation.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;The members of a generation, on the other
hand, have no identifiable function in terms of the good of the generation
itself.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Temporal coexistence does not
seem to illustrate the sort of &lt;i&gt;structure&lt;/i&gt;
which could make it meaningful to talk about a generation as an abstract entity
with a good of its own.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;And if a
generation does not have a good of its own, then it is difficult to imagine how
we could disrespect it.&lt;span&gt;&amp;nbsp; &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, we
may conclude that generations cannot have rights, and so cannot have a right to
inherit an unspoiled Earth.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=30948" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Climate+Change/default.aspx">Climate Change</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx">The Non-Identity Problem</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Opportunity/default.aspx">Opportunity</category></item><item><title>Rights for Future People in Light of the Non-Identity Problem</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/05/04/rights-for-future-people-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx</link><pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 22:08:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:30682</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>3</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=30682</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/05/04/rights-for-future-people-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;[Cross-posted on &lt;a target="_blank" href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;span&gt;To this point, we have identified
rights-infringements as occurring where climate change causes the
climate system to become more dangerous.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It
might seem, then, that wherever the impacts of a more dangerous climate
system are felt, rights will be infringed, into perpetuity.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;After
all, the mere passage of time between a cause and its effects does not
seem like the kind of feature which would lead us to deny that a
rights-infringement has taken place.&lt;/span&gt;  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;But we might take a different view if we thought that those upon whom the impacts of climate change will eventuate will &lt;i&gt;necessarily&lt;/i&gt; not be made any worse off than they possibly could have been.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;How could this be true?&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Consider the implications of climate change &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; being caused.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Those
who otherwise would have contributed to climate change would spend
their money on different things, travel to different places, and get
different jobs.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;More importantly, they would meet different people, and fall in love under different circumstances.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;As Derek Parfit points out in his book, &lt;i&gt;Reasons and Persons&lt;/i&gt;, &amp;ldquo;Each of us grew from a particular pair of cells: an ovum and the spermatozoon by which, out of millions, it was fertilized.&amp;rdquo;&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If
our parents had conceived their children under substantially different
circumstances than the ones through which we were brought into
existence (perhaps even with different partners), the consequence would
be that we would not exist; other people would have existed instead.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, Parfit observes:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0.5in 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span&gt;If
a choice between two social policies will affect the standard of living
or the quality of life for about a century, it will affect the details
of all the lives that, in our community, are later lived.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As a result, some of those who later live will owe their existence to our choice of one of these two policies.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;After one or two centuries, this will be true of everyone in our community.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;The
changes in our lifestyles that would be necessary in order to prevent
anthropogenic climate change seem like they would constitute the sort
of differences which would affect the identities of future people
within a relatively small number of generations.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Even
those communities which are completely isolated from the rest of
civilization would likely be affected by the decision not to cause
climate change, through differences in the climatic conditions in which
they lived.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, we can say with a
reasonable level of certainty that if humanity does not cause climate
change, the people who will inherit the Earth will be a completely
different group of people than would have existed if climate change had
been allowed to occur.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;Acknowledging this phenomenon, referred to as the Non-Identity Problem, we are faced with a startling conclusion.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If
we cause climate change, the people who will experience its effects
will be people who could not possibly have existed if climate change
had not occurred.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, they will be no
worse off as a result of our choice to allow climate change to occur
than they could have been in any other scenario.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The climate change that they would face would be a necessary condition of their existence.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Confronted with this fact, we must ask, do we infringe these individuals&amp;rsquo; rights by contributing to climate change?&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;Perhaps the most intuitive response would be that we do not.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There is a sense in which we generally think of rights-infringements as involving &lt;i&gt;harm&lt;/i&gt;
to their victims, and it difficult to identify any person among the
future generations who will have to deal with the impacts of climate
change who is &lt;i&gt;harmed&lt;/i&gt; by the actions of the present-day
contributors to climate change; none of them will be any worse off than
they could have been in any other scenario.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Essentially, the only thing that will have been done to them is that they will have been brought into existence.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And
while it is conceivable that in some cases, where a life is deemed to
be not worth living, it might be seen as harmful to be brought into
existence, this possibility does not seem to create problems for the
overall notion that bringing a different set of people into existence
is not a harmful act.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If harm is a core
component of rights, then, it seems that no rights are infringed when
future people, who are only brought into existence because of climate
change, have to deal with the effects of that climate change.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;But
some might point out that even if they are not technically worse off
than they could have been, the impacts of climate change will involve
definite &lt;i&gt;costs&lt;/i&gt; for future people.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Individuals
have interests in certain things being the case, and it imposes a cost
on them when those interests are hampered, even if their overall
wellbeing is not made any lower than it otherwise could have been.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;An
individual whose house is destroyed by a flood must still deal with
the consequences of that destruction, even if the &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span&gt;flood&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span&gt;&amp;rsquo;s
occurrence is a necessary condition of that individual&amp;rsquo;s existence.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;Accordingly,
one might coherently argue that individuals have a right not to have
their interests interfered with by others, even if those costs do not
result in the victim being made worse off as a result.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For example, James Woodward writes:&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0.5in 0.0001pt;"&gt;&lt;span&gt;In his moving memoir &lt;i&gt;Man&amp;rsquo;s Search for Meaning&lt;/i&gt;,
Viktor Frankl seems to suggest that, as a result of his imprisonment in
a Nazi concentration camp, he developed certain resources of character,
insights into the human condition, and capacities for appreciation that
he would not otherwise have had.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Let us suppose,
not implausibly, that Frankl&amp;rsquo;s mistreatment by the  was a
necessary condition for the richness of his later life, and that, had
the  behaved differently toward him, his life would have been, on
balance, less full and good.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It seems wildly
counterintuitive to suggest that it follows from this fact alone that
the  did not really wrong Frankl or violate his rights.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;I think that Woodward&amp;rsquo;s suggestion is completely correct.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It
does seem as though Frankl&amp;rsquo;s rights were infringed by the &amp;rsquo;
actions, even though he was not actually made worse off on the whole,
and that this is so because of the costs that were imposed on him.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As
we have discussed, the contributors to climate change will bring about
the occurrence of phenomena which will impose costs on future people.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If
we accept the view that the hampering of certain kinds of interests is
sufficient grounds for identifying a rights infringement, then, we
might be led to the position that climate change does infringe the
rights of future individuals.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;However,
we must note a critical difference between what it means for the 
to hamper Frankl&amp;rsquo;s interests and what it means for the contributors to
climate change to hamper future people&amp;rsquo;s interests.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We
can reasonably say that if the  had not imprisoned Frankl (and nor
did anyone else), then Frankl would have gone unimprisoned.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This is not the case for those future individuals whose interests are affected by climate change.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If
the contributors to climate change had not acted as they did, it is not
as if the future individuals in question would have gone unaffected by
climate change.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They would have never come into existence.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;We
may think of this difference in terms of a particular set of
conditions&amp;rsquo; &amp;ldquo;distance&amp;rdquo; from some baseline representing the fulfillment
of some interest.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For Frankl, the relevant
baseline was a state of liberty, in which his interest in being free of
unjust imprisonment was fulfilled.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;By imprisoning Frankl, the  &amp;ldquo;moved&amp;rdquo; Frankl away from the baseline in a way that impeded his interest in freedom.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;On
the other hand, the future people who will be affected by climate
change will be born into a world in which they are inherently not &amp;ldquo;on&amp;rdquo;
the baseline of freedom from the costs that will be imposed upon them
by climate change.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;By the nature of their existence, this baseline is unattainable.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Where Frankl is moved off of his baseline, the future people who will be affected by climate change are not.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span&gt;It
seems intuitive to me that in order to have a right that something be
the case, it needs to be possible that that thing be the case.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If the thing in question is the integrity of my interest, then it must be possible that my interest is fulfilled.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But the future people&amp;rsquo;s interests which will be hindered by climate change cannot possibly be fulfilled.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly, it seems reasonable to say that future people have no right to these interests.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;  &lt;span&gt;Reflecting upon our discussion of the nature of rights, this conclusion seems to be the correct one.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;As we have said, rights reflect the respect to which individuals are due as ends-in-themselves.&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If
it is impossible that a person exist unless certain things are the
case, then it seems odd to say that we could disrespect that person by
bringing it about that those things are the case (again, excluding the
possibility that the person&amp;rsquo;s life is not worth living).&lt;span&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Accordingly,
it seems fair to conclude that we do not infringe future people&amp;rsquo;s
rights by causing phenomena that will impose costs upon them, so far as
the occurrence of those phenomena are necessary conditions of those
individuals&amp;rsquo; existence.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=30682" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Climate+Change/default.aspx">Climate Change</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx">The Non-Identity Problem</category></item><item><title>"Costs" vs. "Harms" and Rights in Light of the Non-Identity Problem</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/03/04/quot-costs-quot-vs-quot-harms-quot-and-rights-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx</link><pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:00:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:20908</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>0</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=20908</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/03/04/quot-costs-quot-vs-quot-harms-quot-and-rights-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;[Cross-posted on &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So I&amp;#39;ve been talking a lot about the implications of &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Non-Identity%20Problem"&gt;the Non-Identity Problem&lt;/a&gt;
for the way we think about our obligations to future people, and I came
up with the idea that perhaps we want to talk about &amp;quot;costs&amp;quot; to future
people, as opposed to &amp;quot;harms,&amp;quot; because the concept of harm doesn&amp;#39;t seem
to apply. In my &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/2008/02/costs-to-future-people-thought.html"&gt;most recent post&lt;/a&gt;
on the subject, I created a thought experiment which (I hope)
demonstrated that costs can be imposed on people in spite of the fact
that these costs don&amp;#39;t represent harms (I&amp;#39;ll be referring to the
thought experiment in this post, so you might want to have read it
before continuing on here). I concluded that post wondering what
ethical significance we could attribute to these costs, since they
don&amp;#39;t actually represent harms.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In an &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/2008/01/do-future-people-have-right-to-inherit.html"&gt;earlier post&lt;/a&gt;, I suggested that Sidney&amp;#39;s de-pantsing couldn&amp;#39;t possibly be a violation of any rights held by him:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;...when
we talk about an infringement of rights, we compare a certain outcome
to a baseline. In a paradigm case, we might say that if I infringe your
right not to be robbed by robbing you, I &amp;quot;move you away&amp;quot; from the
baseline of you not being robbed, in the &amp;quot;direction&amp;quot; of you being
robbed. And if I infringe your right to inherit an unspoiled Earth, I
must be bringing it about that you do not inherit an unspoiled Earth.
And indeed I do. But I can&amp;#39;t coherently say that I &amp;quot;move you away&amp;quot; from
a baseline of inheriting an unspoiled Earth. So instead I have to say
that I simply place you in a situation in which you are not on the
baseline.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Is this morally the same sort of thing? If the
critical element of a rights infringement is that I bring it about that
you aren&amp;#39;t on the baseline, then my action might qualify as one. But we
have to acknowledge that your rights are not to &amp;quot;remaining on the
baseline&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;not being moved away from the baseline.&amp;quot; They&amp;#39;re &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;purely&lt;/span&gt;
to &amp;quot;being on the baseline,&amp;quot; even though you couldn&amp;#39;t possibly have been
there. We would have to say that the &amp;quot;movement away&amp;quot; from the baseline
is &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;not&lt;/span&gt; an essential part of the equation.  But honestly, I think it is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In
his boldly titled essay, &amp;quot;The Non-Identity Problem,&amp;quot; James Woodward
disagrees. He discusses the choice of an energy policy which will cause
a nuclear catastrophe in the future, and writes, &amp;quot;...the sort of
analysis I have been exploring explains the wrongfulness of the choice
of the nuclear policy by focusing on the difference between the
situation of the nuclear people under the choice of the nuclear policy
(when they are killed, injured, etc.) and an (unattainable) baseline
situation in which the nuclear people exist and these violations of
their rights do not occur. This difference represents a loss which,
arguably, one can coherently think of as happening &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;to&lt;/span&gt; the nuclear people.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#39;s
almost amusing how similar Woodward&amp;#39;s point is to what I&amp;#39;ve been
saying. Really, there is only one major difference between our
thinking. Woodward thinks that these events which represent departures
from an abstract baseline represent &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;violations of rights&lt;/span&gt;,
where I do not. Why does Woodward think that this is the case? He
writes, &amp;quot;Presumably what the nuclear people will complain about is the
fact that many of their number have been killed, injured, poisoned, and
so forth. Presumably they will not say, &amp;quot;We recognize that nothing
wrong has been done to us. What awakens our indignation is rather that
even better off people would have been produced if the alternative
energy policy had been chosen.&amp;quot;&amp;quot; And I agree. Just as Sidney would
complain about having had his pants pulled down, and that the problem
with Vlad&amp;#39;s actions seems to be tied to the costly event that Sidney
will be put through, it does seem that what&amp;#39;s wrong with the nuclear
policy is that it brings it about that people are killed, injured,
poisoned, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But remember that we have assumed as a
precondition that all of these people had lives that were worth living.
A reasonably strong case could seemingly be made that while these
people would complain about these things, and think that they were
wronged, their anger would be irrational. By saying that their rights
had been violated, they would need to say that their existence violated
their rights. And as long as they didn&amp;#39;t wish that they had never been
born (or as long as it didn&amp;#39;t actually &amp;quot;harm&amp;quot; them to be born), we
might say that their complaints represent a desire to have their cake
and eat it to. Accordingly, I find myself unconvinced by Woodward&amp;#39;s
point.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It seems to me that a better place to start would be with
a statement like, &amp;quot;It is wrong to act in such a way that a person comes
into existence, upon whom the consequences of your actions will impose
costs, but who will not have been provided with proper compensation for
those costs.&amp;quot; In my thought experiment, costs were imposed upon Sidney
by Vlad&amp;#39;s actions, and he was not provided with any form of
compensation. In the same way, the nuclear people are not compensated
for the damage done to them by the nuclear catastrophe. Accordingly,
this principle would say that Vlad acted badly, and the policymakers
acted badly, which I think reflects our intuitions about the
situations. Further, it would capture an intuition, which Woodward and
I share, that if we provided proper compensation to future people for
costs our actions impose on them, then our overall actions would be
acceptable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There&amp;#39;s another important factor which is dealt with
by this principle, which was touched on by Steve Vanderheiden in his
essay, &amp;quot;Conservation, Foresight, and the Future Generations Problem.&amp;quot;
Even if, as I have discussed, we think that Sidney and the nuclear
people do not have their rights violated by the actions of the people
in the past, we don&amp;#39;t think that Sidney or the nuclear people would
look back on those actions with approval. We might imagine Sidney
saying, &amp;quot;Sure, I wouldn&amp;#39;t trade the opportunity to live for not getting
my pants pulled down. But still, Vlad was wrong to launch the rocket;
he never should have done it. It&amp;#39;s true that if he had acted rightly, I
wouldn&amp;#39;t exist. But I can accept that without wishing that I had never
been born.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think I&amp;#39;m happy with this, so I&amp;#39;ll stop here.&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=20908" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx">The Non-Identity Problem</category></item><item><title>Costs to Future People: A Thought Experiment</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/23/costs-to-future-people-a-thought-experiment.aspx</link><pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:44:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:19792</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>0</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=19792</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/23/costs-to-future-people-a-thought-experiment.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;[Cross-posted on &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So I&amp;#39;ve been talking a lot about the implications of the Non-Identity
Problem for dealing with issues like climate change, and I&amp;#39;ve come up
with a thought experiment to help think about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Vlad is a mad
scientist, and knows that his neighbors, the Crosbys, have been
planning to have a child. He constructs a sophisticated robot in his
laboratory (pronounced luh-bor-uh-tory), which he mounts atop a rocket.
Vlad then waits at his window with his binoculars until he sees Mr. and
Mrs. Crosby walk outside their house to have dinner on the porch. As
the Crosbys sit down to eat, Vlad launches his rocket right out of his
roof, filling his neighbors with awe and wonder. Inevitably, the fact
that the Crosbys watched the rocket fly into space introduces tiny
differences in the rest of their lives. Instead of eating at 6:03, they
eat at 6:05; instead of talking to her friend Janet for 4 minutes and
35 seconds the next day, Mrs. Crosby talks for 4 minutes and 57
seconds. The differences are so tiny that they aren&amp;#39;t really
noticeable, but two days later, when the Crosbys get into bed to
conceive their child, a different spermatozoon fertilizes Mrs. Crosby&amp;#39;s
egg than would have done so otherwise. The child developing inside of
Mrs. Crosby would not have existed but for Vlad&amp;#39;s rocket launch.
Programmed to watch for this development, Vlad&amp;#39;s robot detects the
growing fetus and watches from space as the child is born and grows
older.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Sidney Crosby, the Crosbys&amp;#39; son, is now thirteen, and has
developed a crush on a girl in his class. One day at recess,
he finally musters the courage to go talk to her. This is exactly what
Vlad&amp;#39;s robot has been waiting for. It turns on a cloaking device (which
renders it invisible) and silently descends from space, coming up right
behind Sidney as he approaches the girl. Right as the two begin to
talk, Vlad&amp;#39;s robot grabs hold of Sidney&amp;#39;s pants and jerks them to the
ground. As the playground erupts with laughter, Vlad&amp;#39;s robot silently
slips away, leaving Sidney to wallow in his humiliation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Now,
because the robot is only mechanically doing as it was programmed, it
should be clear that the sole responsibility for Sidney&amp;#39;s de-pantsing
lies with Vlad. And assuming that neither Vlad nor anyone else can stop
the robot once it&amp;#39;s been launched, Sidney&amp;#39;s de-pantsing is a necessary
condition for Sidney&amp;#39;s existence. If Vlad hadn&amp;#39;t launched the robot,
the Crosbys would have simply had a different child. So Sidney is no
worse off than he could possibly have been.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I don&amp;#39;t think
it&amp;#39;s difficult to see why we might nevertheless want to say that a cost
is imposed on Sidney when Vlad&amp;#39;s robot pulls his pants down. But what
does it mean to say this? And what ethical significance could such a
cost have? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=19792" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx">The Non-Identity Problem</category></item><item><title>Cost-Benefit Analysis in Light of the Non-Identity Problem</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/19/cost-benefit-analysis-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx</link><pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:48:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:19413</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>5</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=19413</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/19/cost-benefit-analysis-in-light-of-the-non-identity-problem.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;[Cross-posted on the &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"&gt;parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So earlier I wrote about &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/search/label/Discounting"&gt;the role played by discounting&lt;/a&gt;
in doing cost-benefit analyses on the impacts of climate change. I
concluded that discounting of future damage is unethical because it
treats future people as if their interests matter less than present
people&amp;#39;s. But recently, I&amp;#39;ve &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Non-Identity%20Problem"&gt;also been discussing&lt;/a&gt;
the implications of the Non-Identity Problem, and it should be clear
that cost-benefit analysis needs to explain its relevance in light of
this problem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For those who haven&amp;#39;t been paying attention (or have only recently begun seeing my blog at its spiffy new &lt;a href="http://mises.com/blogs/donny/"&gt;alternative location&lt;/a&gt;), I &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/2008/01/harm-to-future-people-in-light-of-non.html"&gt;explained&lt;/a&gt; the relevance of the Non-Identity Problem like this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;If
we were to act to prevent or mitigate climate change, we would bring it
about that people would spend their money on different things, travel
to different places, meet different people, get different jobs, and
most importantly, have different children (just think how tiny are the
chances of a particular spermatozoon fertilizing a particular egg!). In
100 years, it&amp;#39;s likely (if not certain) that the world would be
populated by an entirely different set of people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As a
consequence of this &amp;quot;fact&amp;quot; (I will accept it as one), we are pretty
much forced to say that the people who inherit a world affected by
climate change are no worse off &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;than they could have been&lt;/span&gt;,
because if we had caused less climate change, they wouldn&amp;#39;t have
existed. Accordingly, it seems difficult to see how we could say that
climate change &amp;quot;harms&amp;quot; anyone; if we did anything differently &amp;quot;to&amp;quot;
them, they&amp;#39;d simply not exist.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So if the people who
would face climate change will be different people than the ones who
would have existed if we didn&amp;#39;t cause climate change, how can we
reasonably talk about &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;costs&lt;/span&gt;
being incurred as a result of climate change? It seems like when we
talk about costs, we do rely on some sort of counterfactual, based on
what would have happened if the event in question hadn&amp;#39;t happened. For
example, let&amp;#39;s say I&amp;#39;m talking about a cost imposed on me by a car
accident. What I have in mind is that there is a difference between
what actually happened to me and what would have happened to me if the
accident hadn&amp;#39;t happened.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And when we talk about costs imposed
by climate change, it seems like we&amp;#39;re using the same sort of thinking:
the costs imposed by climate change represent the difference between
what happens to people in a climate change scenario, and what would
have happened to them in the absence of climate change. But as I&amp;#39;ve
said, what would happen to them in the absence of climate change is
that they wouldn&amp;#39;t exist. So how can we say that a cost has been
imposed?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&amp;#39;s my view that this is actually not a problem for
cost-benefit analyses at all. When we talk about what would have
happened if a particular event had not occurred, I don&amp;#39;t think it&amp;#39;s
necessary that it would actually have been possible for the event not
to have occurred. I might say, &amp;quot;What costs and benefits did I incur as
a result of being born male instead of female?&amp;quot; I couldn&amp;#39;t have been
born female; if my parents had a female child, it wouldn&amp;#39;t have been
me. But I still think we can ask such a question without speaking utter
gibberish.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some might be quick to point out that doing so would
involve a lot of serious difficulties, because we&amp;#39;d have to hypothesize
exactly what kind of life &amp;quot;I&amp;quot; would have lived, and we&amp;#39;d need to
somehow compare that life to the one I already have. In the same way,
it&amp;#39;s extremely difficult to establish what someone&amp;#39;s life would have
been like if climate change hadn&amp;#39;t affected them, and probably harder
still to compare that hypothetical life to the one that actually
happens. But it&amp;#39;s important to see that this problem isn&amp;#39;t confined to
situations characterized by the Non-Identity Problem. The same kind of
difficulties seem to be present when we ask, &amp;quot;What costs and benefits
did I incur as a result of majoring in philosophy?&amp;quot; And it seems to me
that any cost-benefit analysis is going to have to face these problems.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So back to the real question: does the Non-Identity Problem create any &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;new&lt;/span&gt;
problems for cost-benefit analysis? It does if we think of costs as
representing harmful deviations from alternative possibilities&lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;&lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;&lt;/span&gt;.  As I &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/2008/01/do-future-people-have-right-to-inherit.html"&gt;pointed out&lt;/a&gt;
earlier, the concept of harm seems to include the idea of being moved
away from a baseline, and the sort of baseline we&amp;#39;d need to refer to
here is one where the individual couldn&amp;#39;t possibly be on the baseline.
If you couldn&amp;#39;t exist if certain things didn&amp;#39;t happen, then it&amp;#39;s hard
to see why we would say that you&amp;#39;re harmed by their happening. But
costs don&amp;#39;t need to be thought of as harmful to people. As I alluded to
earlier, I wouldn&amp;#39;t want to say that I was harmed by being born a male
instead of a female. My being male seems to be a necessary condition
for my existence. But I can still try to determine what costs being a
male has imposed on me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So the fact that we can&amp;#39;t consider the
costs involved in future cost-benefit calculations to be harmful
doesn&amp;#39;t prevent us from being able to conduct the cost-benefit
analysis. But one thing we have to keep in mind is whether the costs
that we&amp;#39;d be measuring have any ethical significance. I want to think
more about that, so I&amp;#39;ll stop here.&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=19413" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Discounting/default.aspx">Discounting</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Climate+Change/default.aspx">Climate Change</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/The+Non-Identity+Problem/default.aspx">The Non-Identity Problem</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Economics/default.aspx">Economics</category></item></channel></rss>