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<?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="http://mises.org/Community/utility/FeedStylesheets/rss.xsl" media="screen"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/" xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"><channel><title>Back to the Drawing Board : Property Rights, Liberty</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Property+Rights/Liberty/default.aspx</link><description>Tags: Property Rights, Liberty</description><dc:language>en</dc:language><generator>CommunityServer 2008.5 SP2 (Build: 40407.4157)</generator><item><title>Three Different Ways of Using Force</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/08/23/three-different-ways-of-using-force.aspx</link><pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:43:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:48189</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>1</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=48189</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/08/23/three-different-ways-of-using-force.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;So here&amp;#39;s the idea: there are at least three different ways that
libertarians generally think of coercive force, and I think they&amp;#39;ve
been harmed by treating them as if they were essentially the same sort
of thing. The first kind of coercive &amp;quot;force&amp;quot; is the use of someone
else&amp;#39;s property without their permission, or in direct defiance of
their wishes. The second kind is the initiation of physical force upon
a person, again without permission or in violation of their explicit
desires. The third kind is the threat of physical force directed at
coercing a person into doing something against their will. I don&amp;#39;t deny
that there might be more &amp;quot;kinds,&amp;quot; but these three came to mind first,
so they&amp;#39;re the one&amp;#39;s I&amp;#39;ll address here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It
seems to me that when many libertarians decry &amp;quot;coercion&amp;quot; or &amp;quot;aggressive
force,&amp;quot; they do so by means of certain kinds of arguments. These
arguments sometimes take the form of identifying the &amp;quot;true nature&amp;quot; of
certain kinds of coercive actions, and extending that characterization
to other kinds of coercive actions which may or may not fall into
different categories of force as expounded above. This, I think, can
lead to mistakes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;For example, &amp;quot;Taxation is slavery because the
product of your labor doesn&amp;#39;t belong to you.&amp;quot; The idea here is that the
government &amp;quot;steals&amp;quot; some of your income from you (which depends on the
rejection of the idea that you voluntarily live on the government&amp;#39;s
land by living in a country), and this money is the product of your own
labor. But you know what you call a system in which you work, but
someone else gets the product of that work? Yea, slavery. Blammo, take
that government! *high fives from the libertarians*&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Except
here&amp;#39;s the thing. There is exactly one sense in which taxation is like
slavery, and it&amp;#39;s not the sense that these people are talking about.
The way that taxation is like slavery is that the government demands
that you, or your employer, or someone not actually on their own staff,
actually sends them the money. That is, if you don&amp;#39;t put the check in
the envelope, stamp it, and send it, you get punished. That&amp;#39;s the third
kind of force discussed above, where the threat of violence is used to
coerce a person into doing something against their will. And that&amp;#39;s
exactly like slavery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;However, the reason that taxation is like
slavery has nothing to do with the fact that the government gets the
product of your work. That kind of thinking is not only sloppy, but in
many ways anti-libertarian and Marxist. We live in a country where we
are told that we will be taxed &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;if we decide to work&lt;/span&gt;.  In a slave society, slaves are told that they will be taxed &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;and they will work, whether they like it or not&lt;/span&gt;.
The government does not use the threat of force to make us produce
income. That would be like the third kind of force, which is the kind
that can be associated legitimately with slavery. We choose to work,
and can choose not to do so without any government-enforced
consequences.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The idea that the product of our labor should
belong to us, even when we are explicitly a part of an arrangement in
which it will be taken from us, is an idea that can be traced back to
Marx and the labor theory of value. The very same idea is used to
explain why capitalists exploit their workers: the workers produce, and
the corporation gets the product of that labor. It&amp;#39;s like wage-slavery!
*high fives from the socialists*&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The difference between a
voluntary agreement to work and government taxation is not that
corporations let you keep the product of your labor and the government
doesn&amp;#39;t. Rather, the difference is that you don&amp;#39;t agree to the
arrangement the government enforces upon you (well, under certain
conceptions of voluntarity), and you do agree to the arrangement the
corporation enforces upon you. In a corporate agreement, you are
&amp;quot;paying&amp;quot; your employers with the product of your labor in exchange for
them paying you with money that you want more than the product of your
labor. In a government agreement, you are paying the government with
the product of your labor so that they won&amp;#39;t use the first kind of
force (the use of your property against your will) or the second kind
(the use of physical force against your person).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The slavery
part of that bargain is the part where they actually make you pay the
tax with the threat of those other kinds of force. If they just went to
your bank and took the money from you, the slavery component would be
gone. But ostensibly, nobody&amp;#39;s complaining because we have to put a
check in an envelope and mail it, or fill out a form every once in a
while. I mean, that&amp;#39;s a pain in the ass, but I really don&amp;#39;t think
that&amp;#39;s the problem. The problem is not that taxation is like slavery,
but rather that taxation is like theft.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But if you accept the
view that we voluntarily live on the government&amp;#39;s land, and part of our
contract is that we pay taxes to the government, then even this
characterization doesn&amp;#39;t apply. The first kind of force (using property
without the owner&amp;#39;s permission) doesn&amp;#39;t apply to situations where the
alleged &amp;quot;owner&amp;quot; is party to an agreement through which she surrendered
the title to that property, just like it&amp;#39;s not the first kind of force
when my employer takes the product of my labor without my consent. And
the second kind of force (physical force against someone&amp;#39;s person)
doesn&amp;#39;t seem to apply when the person is doing something that they have
a perfect right to be doing, and are resisted against forcefully. In a
sense, it would almost be self-defense for the government to collect
its &amp;quot;rent&amp;quot;, just like my employer would have every right to use some
reasonable amount of force if I suddenly refused to give up the
products of my labor in the middle of the work day (well, more
accurately, he would have the right to demand that I appear in court or
something similar, and if I were found to be in breach of my contract,
some force would be legitimate in enforcing that contract; I&amp;#39;m no
opponent of procedural justice).&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So we see that &amp;quot;Taxation is
slavery&amp;quot; collapses into &amp;quot;Taxation is theft, and they even make me give
it to them at gunpoint&amp;quot;, which then collapses into &amp;quot;The government
doesn&amp;#39;t have any legitimate claim to my property.&amp;quot; It seems to me that
all that would be perfectly clear to anyone willing to think about it
for a moment if they would only separate the different kinds of force
and consider each in its own light.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=48189" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Property+Rights/default.aspx">Property Rights</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Liberty/default.aspx">Liberty</category></item><item><title>Another Double Standard Between Governments and Individuals? </title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/06/13/another-double-standard-between-governments-and-individuals.aspx</link><pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:07:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:37686</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>0</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=37686</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/06/13/another-double-standard-between-governments-and-individuals.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;[Cross-posted...a while ago...on &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" class="null"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So today was my first day at the Foundation for Economic Education, where I&amp;#39;ll be interning over the summer, and I&amp;#39;ve already had some excellent debates; this is going to be a fantastic experience. Everyone seems really passionate and interesting, and I&amp;#39;m sure I&amp;#39;m going to learn a lot from everyone. I wanted to put one of the more controversial debate topics on my blog as a record, and to get the idea out to a wider audience. I&amp;#39;ve been toying around with the idea for a few days; I&amp;#39;m really curious to hear what other people think.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The idea is this: If we recognize private entities&amp;#39; claims to property titles as legitimate, even when they have a known history of violence and illegitimacy, then it&amp;#39;s difficult to argue that currently existing governments are illegitimate for property rights-based reasons. Governments claim that we live in their territory, and their claims have roots that go back many generations. To claim that a government is not justified in enforcing rules in its territory is, effectively, to claim that the government is not the legitimate owner of that territory. But saying that, it seems to me, makes it very difficult to consistently argue that many (most, if not all) private property titles are legitimately held.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We had a bit of fun with this one at dinner, and I&amp;#39;m not completely sure what I think of it. Of course, everyone else at the table was not too comfortable with the idea, and it made for some lively debate. But nevertheless, I figured I&amp;#39;d post it here. Feel free to leave any comments; I&amp;#39;ll be interested to hear what people think about this. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=37686" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Property+Rights/default.aspx">Property Rights</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Liberty/default.aspx">Liberty</category></item></channel></rss>