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<?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="http://mises.org/Community/utility/FeedStylesheets/rss.xsl" media="screen"?><rss version="2.0" xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/" xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/" xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"><channel><title>Back to the Drawing Board : Economics, Equality</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Economics/Equality/default.aspx</link><description>Tags: Economics, Equality</description><dc:language>en</dc:language><generator>CommunityServer 2008.5 SP2 (Build: 40407.4157)</generator><item><title>Away From Distributive Justice, Towards Collective Responsibility</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/08/30/away-from-distributive-justice-towards-collective-responsibility.aspx</link><pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:52:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:49490</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>0</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=49490</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/08/30/away-from-distributive-justice-towards-collective-responsibility.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;
Here&amp;#39;s another cool Hayek quote, from chapter 5 of his &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;New Studies in Philosophy, Politics, Economics and the History of Ideas&lt;/span&gt;, entitled &amp;quot;The Atavism of Social Justice&amp;quot;:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&amp;quot;...there
can be no distributive justice where no one distributes. Justice has
meaning only as a rule of human conduct, and no conceivable rules for
the conduct of individuals supplying each other with goods and services
in a market economy would produce a distribution which could be
meaningfully described as just or unjust. Individuals might conduct
themselves as justly as possible, but as the results for separate
individuals would be neither intended nor foreseeable by others, the
resulting state of affairs could neither be called just nor unjust&amp;quot;
(58).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#39;ve been arguing basically that point of view
for a while, and this is far from the first time I&amp;#39;ve heard it
articulated by someone else, but I really like the way Hayek put it
here. But it also got me thinking. Hayek does use as support for his
argument the fact that the results of the market process are not
foreseeable. And it does seem to me that a great many people see
certain regrettable outcomes of the market process as quite foreseeable
enough to dodge this argument. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;quot;Perhaps the precise outcomes
of the process are not foreseeable,&amp;quot; someone might argue, &amp;quot;but we can
easily foresee that certain things will likely occur, like the
occasional occurrence of instances of extreme need. Even if, as a
society, we think ourselves justified in &amp;#39;playing the game&amp;#39; of
catallaxy (as Hayek puts it on page 60 and later throughout the essay),
we nevertheless might be able to point to certain predictable and
regrettable outcomes of that game and demand that they be &amp;#39;cleaned up.&amp;#39;
It&amp;#39;s on those grounds that I claim that we have some sort of obligation
to ensure that no one is left behind &amp;#39;by&amp;#39; our playing the game of
catallaxy. I cannot articulate, necessarily, exactly what that
obligation entails, or what is its nature, but to deny the existence of
any such obligation seems simply wrong.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I think that would be a
pretty fair line of attack, and I think it deserves an answer. I&amp;#39;m not
sure what I&amp;#39;ll find, but the question seems to become one which is
perfectly tractable within my notion of rights and duties. So I pose
for myself the following questions: Do we have a duty to help those in
desperate need, either collective or individual? How might we
understand such a duty, and what would it entail?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#39;ll be working on an answer to those questions over the coming months.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=49490" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Equality/default.aspx">Equality</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Economics/default.aspx">Economics</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Collective+Duties/default.aspx">Collective Duties</category></item><item><title>Does the Fact that Individuals Discount Entail the Existence of a Social Discount Rate?</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/15/does-the-fact-that-individuals-discount-entail-the-existence-of-a-social-discount-rate.aspx</link><pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:09:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:19145</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>6</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=19145</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/15/does-the-fact-that-individuals-discount-entail-the-existence-of-a-social-discount-rate.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;[Cross-posted on &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"&gt;the parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/2008/02/cost-benefit-analysis-discounting-and.html"&gt;my last post&lt;/a&gt;,
I discussed the idea of discounting as it relates to cost-benefit
analysis. I reached the conclusion that discounting treats future
people&amp;#39;s interests as if they were less significant than our own, and
that if cost-benefit analysis aims to make people the best off, then
this seems like a bad practice. I received a reply from a fellow with
the handle of TokyoTom, which said the following:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Donny,
I don&amp;#39;t think that you&amp;#39;ve at all demonstrated that we don&amp;#39;t discount -
viz., that we try to make decisions on the basis that the preferences
of people who do not exist today should weigh as much as our own.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I
would disagree with that conclusion myself. Clearly individuals act on
the basis of their own preferences, which preferences may take into
consideration the supposed preferences of others, including future
generations. These others simply don&amp;#39;t have a vote on what my
preferences are - and is the collective actions of billions of
individuals alive today that similarly make decisions that bring about
tomorrow.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Tom (at least I assume his name is Tom) is
absolutely right to say that individuals clearly act as though value in
the future is worth less than the equivalent value today. If I were
trying to argue that people actually do make decisions as if future
people matter just as much as they do, I would be easily refuted. In
fact, I would be hard pressed to believe even that people behave as
though future people matter very much at all, never mind as though
their interests were equal to their own.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But I never argued that
individuals don&amp;#39;t discount (in fact, I specifically acknowledged that
they do), or that individuals consider future individuals to be just as
important as themselves. Rather, I argued that discounting future
damage in cost-benefit analysis is unjust. What&amp;#39;s the difference? I&amp;#39;ll
try to illustrate with a series of examples.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let&amp;#39;s say that
we&amp;#39;re trying to decide whether to put a garbage dump in a neighborhood
populated exclusively by an ethnic minority (say, Hmong folks). We
perform a cost-benefit analysis to see what we should do. In the first
scenario, let&amp;#39;s say the Hmong folks in the neighborhood would prefer
not to have the garbage dump in their neighborhood, and the folks who
live outside of the neighborhood would prefer to have it there (not
because of any malice, but rather because they would gain use from it).
If (once we equalize for different valuation of money and all that) the
cost-benefit analysis shows that the outsiders would be willing to pay
more to have the dump than the Hmong folks would to not have it, then
we&amp;#39;d say that there&amp;#39;s a net benefit to putting the dump in; it&amp;#39;s worth
doing. And as far as we ignore all the problems with cost-benefit
analysis (that is, we don&amp;#39;t care what we do to the Hmong people as long
as it represents a net gain, and we&amp;#39;re okay with treating a single
metric as properly representing the wellbeing of these people), then
that&amp;#39;s all there is to it. The cost-benefit analysis has worked exactly
as advertised.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But now let&amp;#39;s say that the outsiders didn&amp;#39;t want
the garbage dump because they would benefit from it, but rather because
they&amp;#39;re evil hillbillies and they despise the Hmong people. The benefit
to them is not a self-interested benefit, but rather a benefit derived
from the cost to others. Perhaps if we give this kind of benefit equal
standing, the garbage dump goes in. But that seems like the wrong
conclusion. We might say the same if the garbage dump doesn&amp;#39;t go in
because the Hmong people don&amp;#39;t want the outsiders to get any benefit,
even though they wouldn&amp;#39;t really mind the dump being there. That&amp;#39;s why
most people who advocate cost-benefit analysis try really hard to
ensure that the costs and benefits they&amp;#39;re measuring reflect only the
costs and benefits &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;to the individuals they&amp;#39;re surveying&lt;/span&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Accordingly,
we wouldn&amp;#39;t want to say that the importance of future individuals&amp;#39;
wellbeing can be accounted for in cost-benefit analysis by seeing how &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;present people&lt;/span&gt; value their wellbeing.  What matters is how much &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;they&lt;/span&gt;
value their wellbeing. Once we recognize this, then it becomes clear
what we do when we discount their costs and benefits compared to
current people&amp;#39;s costs and benefits. What we do is to say that their
costs and benefits are &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;less significant&lt;/span&gt; than those of present people.  And it is &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;this&lt;/span&gt; practice which I claim to be unjust.&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=19145" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Equality/default.aspx">Equality</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Discounting/default.aspx">Discounting</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Climate+Change/default.aspx">Climate Change</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Economics/default.aspx">Economics</category></item><item><title>Cost-Benefit Analysis, Discounting, and Climate Change</title><link>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/14/cost-benefit-analysis-discounting-and-climate-change.aspx</link><pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:29:00 GMT</pubDate><guid isPermaLink="false">944abf2b-d1be-4bf2-990d-438cb0e377e9:19064</guid><dc:creator>Donny with an A</dc:creator><slash:comments>1</slash:comments><wfw:commentRss xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/">http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/rsscomments.aspx?PostID=19064</wfw:commentRss><comments>http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/2008/02/14/cost-benefit-analysis-discounting-and-climate-change.aspx#comments</comments><description>&lt;p&gt;[Cross-posted on the &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/" target="_blank"&gt;parent blog&lt;/a&gt;]&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wrote a paper last semester on the notion of discounting future
damage (I&amp;#39;ll explain what this means below), and I wanted to revisit
the issue now that I&amp;#39;ve done a little more research, to see if I still
agree with what I wrote then. Basically, my paper examined how our
views of the proper role of discounting are dependent on our views
about what social policy is trying to achieve, and what kind of problem
climate change poses. Rather than putting my whole paper online and
critiquing it, I&amp;#39;m going to split it up into pieces and post each
separately. In my paper I examined four paradigms: (1) The goal of
social policy should be to allocate resources to their most efficient
uses, and climate change represents a challenge to accomplish this task
in a changing world; (2) The goal of social policy should be to
maximize the overall good, and climate change represents an obstacle in
the way of achieving this goal; (3) Climate change represents an
externality, and the goal of a climate policy should be to internalize
the externalized costs; (4) Climate change represents an overenclosure
of the commons, and the goal of a climate policy should be to remedy
this injustice. In this post, I will first go over what I mean by
&amp;quot;discounting future damage,&amp;quot; and then I will address the first paradigm
listed above.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So how does discounting play into discussions
about climate change? The most significant impacts of climate change
will not occur for a significant amount of time: we&amp;#39;re talking decades
or even centuries. The issue is how important that damage is compared
to the equivalent amount of damage today. In his essay, &amp;quot;&lt;a href="http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol4/iss3/art2/"&gt;Global Climate Change: A Challenge to Policy&lt;/a&gt;,&amp;quot;
Kenneth Arrow wrote that the dispute &amp;quot;...surrounds the appropriate
value for the social rate of time preference. This...allows for
discounting the future simply because it is the future, even if future
generations were no better off than we are. The Stern Review [a report
released by economist Nicholas Stern discussing the effects of global
climate change on the world economy] follows a considerable tradition
among British economists and many philosophers against discounting for
pure futurity. Most economists take pure time preference as obvious.&amp;quot;
So when we talk about discounting future damage, what we&amp;#39;re concerned
with is whether or not it&amp;#39;s acceptable to treat future damage as being
less important, just because it&amp;#39;s going to occur in the future.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So
with that in mind, let&amp;#39;s look at the paradigm of cost-benefit analysis:
policy should allocate social resources in the most efficient manner,
and climate change just represents a challenge for doing that. In its
most rudimentary form, cost-benefit analysis is a tool which allows
decision makers to allocate resources in the way that best matches &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;some relevant set of preferences&lt;/span&gt;.
For social decision makers, the relevant set of preferences would
clearly be those of society as a whole. Since groups are composed of
individuals, advocates of the cost-benefit approach feel that it is
reasonable to extrapolate society&amp;#39;s preferences from the preferences of
individuals. This view is implicit in the position taken by economist
Jerry Taylor, &lt;a href="http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2006/11/28/nordhaus-vs-stern/"&gt;who favors&lt;/a&gt;
discounting future damage at a rate of 5% per year, because it
&amp;quot;...matches the return on Treasury bills - or, put another way, [it is]
the figure people apply themselves when considering the value of money
today versus the value of money tomorrow.&amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Because the simple
cost-benefit perspective considers society as if it were a single
decision maker, needing only to allocate its own resources according to
its preferences, it is immediately clear why discounting would seem
obvious. The existence of a preference for value sooner rather than
later is a basic economic assumption which is rooted in cold empirical
fact. From this mindset, the question is not whether to use a discount
rate, rather what discount rate to use. Some, like Jerry Taylor, use
the discounting practices of the current marketplace. Others, like
economists Richard Newell and William Pizer, &lt;a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;amp;_udi=B6V2W-4985V6J-5&amp;amp;_user=10&amp;amp;_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2004&amp;amp;_rdoc=8&amp;amp;_fmt=summary&amp;amp;_orig=browse&amp;amp;_srch=doc-info%28%23toc%235713%232004%23999679995%23456003%23FLA%23display%23Volume%29&amp;amp;_cdi=5713&amp;amp;_sort=d&amp;amp;_docanchor=&amp;amp;_ct=11&amp;amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;amp;_version=1&amp;amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;amp;_userid=10&amp;amp;md5=b8579c49df33bc7de6f835623b6e9d11"&gt;try to predict&lt;/a&gt;
how market discounting practices will vary over the discounting period,
suggesting a plausible range of 2-7%. But to debate the validity of
using discounting practices at all would be like asking a banker
whether she thought she should charge interest on a loan, or asking an
investor whether he cared about getting a return on his money.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So
if we accept the view sketched above, it&amp;#39;s clear that discounting is
not only acceptable, but almost obvious. But what should we think of
this view? I want to offer a few objections. First, cost-benefit
analysis doesn&amp;#39;t properly account for the individuality of its
subjects, and does not take into consideration the idea that
individuals should not be sacrificed for the sake of others. Second,
cost-benefit analysis supposes that all harms can be quantified
according to a single metric, which doesn&amp;#39;t seem right. Third, even if
we ignore the first two problems, it seems like discounting is
problematic when you consider the goals of cost-benefit analysis. Let
me flesh these out a little.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The first objection is basically taken from &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;Anarchy, State, and Utopia&lt;/span&gt;, where Nozick writes, &amp;quot;...there is no &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;social entity &lt;/span&gt;with
a good that undergoes a sacrifice for its own good. There are only
individual people, with their own individual lives. Using one for the
the benefit of others, uses him and benefits the others. Nothing more.
What happens is something is done to him for the sake of others. Talk
of an overall social good covers this up...To use a person in this way
does not sufficiently respect and take account of the fact that he is a
separate person, that his is the only life he has. &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;He&lt;/span&gt;
does not get some overbalancing good for his sacrifice, and no one is
entitled to force this upon him...&amp;quot; I think Nozick is absolutely right
here; we can&amp;#39;t weigh future people&amp;#39;s interests and current people&amp;#39;s
interests as if they were all held by the same person. Some notion of
proper respect for each group as ends in themselves seems necessary,
and the paradigm discussed here clearly lacks that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The second objection, that a single metric is a suspicious way to evaluate wellbeing, is taken from an essay, &amp;quot;&lt;a href="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/whp/ev/2006/00000015/00000003/art00011"&gt;Values in the Economics of Climate Change&lt;/a&gt;,&amp;quot;
where Michael Toman wrote, &amp;quot;One other critique of climate change
economics as a guide to policy involves the use of a single-dimension
new benefit measure for evaluating different outcomes. This reflects
the standard assumption in economics that all costs and benefits are
commensurable and interchangeable once expressed in a common metric (a
monetary metric as a representation of unobservable utility). There may
be serious measurement problems in implementing such a reductionist
metric, but as a concept the notion of full tradeoffs and thus full &lt;span style="font-style:italic;"&gt;potential&lt;/span&gt;
compensability of losses from climate change is ubiquitous in the
economic model. This view differs from alternatives that see different
kinds of values as less commensurable, e.g., some losses of natural
beauty or function simply cannot be compensated by other welfare
gains.&amp;quot; Personally, I tend to think that these latter kinds of views
are probably closer to being right. For example, if the Hindus of India
are forced to abandon the Ganges as a result of climate change, what
kind of compensation could we reasonably expect them to be satisfied
with?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But even if we ignored the fact that the cost-benefit
model is ethically suspect, and that comparing every harm according to
the same metric is methodologically suspect (never mind the fact that
we could probably never conduct the kind of calculation necessary),
there would still be another problem. The third objection arises from
the fact that calculations of &amp;quot;costs and benefits&amp;quot; are supposed to
reflect utility, and therefore social preferences. The problem is that,
as we discussed earlier, the cost-benefit model is perfectly
comfortable with the idea of discounting. In his essay, &amp;quot;Environmental
Risk, Uncertainty and Intergenerational Ethics,&amp;quot; Kristian Skagen Ekeli
pointed out that &amp;quot;To discount the future implies that current interests
and preferences count for more than those of future generations.&amp;quot; When
we say that future damage should be discounted, what we&amp;#39;re basically
saying is that &amp;quot;society,&amp;quot; which is supposedly neutral between its
individual members, prefers current people to be happy over future
people, simply because they live earlier. How this makes sense is
beyond me. It seems that if we were trying to allocate resources to
impartially reflect their most efficient uses, we would need to weigh
people&amp;#39;s interests as being equally significant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So hopefully
those objections demonstrate two things. The first is that cost-benefit
analysis is a really crappy way to deal with the issue of climate
change. But if we use it anyway (which I suspect people will do,
because that&amp;#39;s how economics is done nowadays), then we shouldn&amp;#39;t
discount future damage. To do so would treat future people as if they
mattered less than present people, and that seems obviously
unacceptable. I am, of course, conspicuously ignoring the &lt;a href="http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Non-Identity%20Problem"&gt;Non-Identity Problem&lt;/a&gt; completely, and I want to deal with that issue, but I guess I&amp;#39;ll leave that for later. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div style="clear:both;"&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;img src="http://mises.org/Community/aggbug.aspx?PostID=19064" width="1" height="1"&gt;</description><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Justice/default.aspx">Justice</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Equality/default.aspx">Equality</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Discounting/default.aspx">Discounting</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Climate+Change/default.aspx">Climate Change</category><category domain="http://mises.org/Community/blogs/donny/archive/tags/Economics/default.aspx">Economics</category></item></channel></rss>